Trading: House Rules and Settings - Page 3

oldtime · 08-31-2008, 01:19 PM

I always play fictional leagues, and never use the scouting system (hiring better scouts and coaches gives you an advantage). but here are a few ideas for playing the game with different challenges.

a) play with ratings set at only 1-5 ( or even off ) for greater mystery to potential and ability.

b) play with financials off, and do not allow any trades. this places a premium on your draft, player development, and game managing skills. I played a fictional "town ball " league like this an really enjoyed it. Started after WWII with the idea of guys who worked in the steel mills of PA would play games at night and on the weekend for their towns, but would stay local and not be traded.

c) after building team into a dynasty, take over an expansion team with very low financials and build it into a dynasty.

d) Set financials with a generous cash maximum and turn off owner decides on budget. Then put yourself on a payroll budget ( like 70 million ). I did this with real MLB rosters in OOTP 6.5 and in addtion to trying to win championships, I set a goal a getting to the 100 Million Cash level. It gets tricky in how much you have to win to make money, without spending too much to win. You need to cut loose popular players to stay in budget, but not hurt attendence.

In my fictional leagues I also like to reduce th 40 man roster to about 32 (waiver rule disabled). This makes it harder to just stockpile young players as you will lose them to the Rule 5 draft. With financials off, and rule 5 set to 3 years, it makes it your player evaluations very difficult.

Bottom Of The Sixth · 08-31-2008, 04:28 PM

Do you guys suggest if starting a brand new league, where all players start with NO stats at all, that the ratings should be 100-0-0-0?

If so, at what points during the league's 1st year should these ratings change and by how much?

I'm guessing that since none of the players will have any past stats, that the numbers would adjust just for rating and current stats for the 1st full year.

In the leagues 2nd year, the numbers would just adjust for rating, current stats, & last year's stats. Year #3 is where I could adjust my ratings according to the examples you provided.

Simon_Nesbit · 08-31-2008, 08:33 PM

My favourite league (now nearly 80 seasons strong) I use the following:

Hard, favor prospects.
25 man roster, 50 man extended. (I hate losing younger players to rule 5, but without it, you build impossible depth).

I can make one trade offer per day in pre-season/free agency and the week before trade deadline. Any other time I can make one trade offer per month.

I can 'talk' to managers at any time (shop around).

I try and weasel every last bit out of a trade. 3-1, 4-1, 5-1. MR's to SP's, etc.

However:

I make deals based on how it benefits the other team. For example:

I have a 34-year old SS - great defense (6-time GG), above average hitting (career .320 hitter with decent power - though in definite decline). I also have a young (26) SS who's a future superstar (8/10/9) and is hitting .280 in a backup role. So it's time for the older guy (club legend too

) to move on.

So I look around.

I won't trade to any team in my Division.
I won't trade to a team that's unlikely to make post-season.
I won't trade to a team that doesn't have SS as a weakness, or has a SS that plays elsewhere.
I won't trade to a team where his salary will be beyond what they can afford in the future.
I won't trade to a team where his salary is substantially greater than that of other, better players.

I'm left with just two possible teams. As it's mid-season, I put an offer in to one - to see what they will give me.

By adding in two OF scrubs, and a decent long-relief type MR, I can swing a good SP prospect from their AAA club.

From their perspective - they are losing their 8th best pitcher, and getting in what would be their 14th - though without as much stamina, some supporting cast OFers, and a five-star SS, who might only have a season or two left.

If they do the trade, they would drop off a 21 yo 2B to AAA, who is entirely unsuitable to majors (2/3/4 current, hitting .140) and greatly strengthen their lineup.

They are 6 games back, but only 1 from the wildcard slot. Their pitching is relatively young (34, 26, 23, 29, 30, 32) and they have other young prospects (though aren't as good) who could step up.

I sit on this offer for a week, whilst I make a similar offer to the other team.

The other team is 14 games clear in 1st, and have a dominating lineup, though their pitching is only good. Their only hole is SS, they have a poor-fielding 34 yo SS who can't hit to save his life - he earns 350k, in a club with a 132 million payroll. And he's their best option?

They are VERY keen for the deal it seems, offering up their #2 pitcher (27, 8/7/7 now, 10/8/7 pot) straight up. They also put up their reserve 3B, who despite low ratings (5/6/5) is only 26 and has potential (7/8/8) to go with incredible defense.

The problem I have, is their rotation is old (35, 27, 36, 33, 29) and they have basically nothing in the system. Their starting 3B is 29, so their reserve is a much better option for them. They are also most likely to make the World Series - in which case I could be directly strengthening my opponent (should I get there).

In the end, I chose the first team's trade, for a couple of reasons.

1. If the trade allowed them to reach WS, they wouldn't be as good as the second team. I didn't want to create a 'juggernaut'.
2. The player I got in return, could stay at AAA, without having to clear waivers. He was also two years younger, allowing for some further development potentially.

Wow, that got long.

*****

In summary, I only trade if I can justify it as the other team. (It also helps you get to know the other teams and players, especially in fictional leagues).

bigMatt · 08-31-2008, 08:59 PM

SN, loved reading your thought process on trading. As I play solo with a historical team (beginning with expansion draft in '61 forward), I'm constantly wondering how to curb my ability to rig trades with my future knowledge of how some of these players are supposed to develop.

I'm going to take your model and play around with it to see how it works for me. Thanks for sharing.

Simon_Nesbit · 09-01-2008, 08:24 AM

BM, in historical leagues (real players) I turn potential 'off' (well 1-5 for easy sorting at draft, then off)

SittingDuck · 09-01-2008, 03:25 PM

Sixth,

Go back to posts 18 & 19 of this thread. Check out some things there.

I agree that for a no-history, no-stat league for the first year you go with 100% stats. You might change that after the break to include a percentage for the current year stats. Those other posts referenced above have more food for thought as to how you might want to proceed, given your desired level of involvement.

However, if you just want to have an ultimate setting that is 'permanent', then I suppose you'll want to change to something for the second season and then finalize in the third, as you mention.

But remember, the months of Jan-April are a special time period, as those other posts point out.

bigMatt · 09-02-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon_Nesbit

BM, in historical leagues (real players) I turn potential 'off' (well 1-5 for easy sorting at draft, then off)

My ignorance will show with this question - how does turning potential off actually affect the player's future performance? Or is it merely a predictor of future performance?

I've been playing sim games forever - mostly strat-o-matic but some of the others as well - and have trouble readjusting my understanding of OOTP. In historical SOM leagues, I would draft with an eye toward a particular season. So, for instance, if I had several guys I knew would peak in, say, '65, I'd tailor my draft strategy to stock up for that season.

OOTP evidently doesn't work that way. I'll have guys who I bring up on their appointed destiny season, only to see them crash and burn. Then there will be the Bud Zipfels of this world that go all Triple Crown some year, when the dude never did much of squat his entire REAL career.

In a way, I really like this, as it makes the game somewhat unpredicatable. But I'd like to understand the phenomena better. My scouts, even if I edit them to be perfect across the board, still give me intel that is spotty at best.

I use the recalc function, which just screws with my head more - since Bud Zipfel or Don Dillard will hit .300 with 30 homers one year, and be someone's castoff the next. Maybe realistic, but not too much so, in that they don't even get ABs after their stellar previous year.

Simon_Nesbit · 09-02-2008, 11:55 PM

I'm just talking about the 'show ratings'

bigMatt · 09-04-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigMatt

My ignorance will show with this question - how does turning potential off actually affect the player's future performance? Or is it merely a predictor of future performance?

I've been playing sim games forever - mostly strat-o-matic but some of the others as well - and have trouble readjusting my understanding of OOTP. In historical SOM leagues, I would draft with an eye toward a particular season. So, for instance, if I had several guys I knew would peak in, say, '65, I'd tailor my draft strategy to stock up for that season.

OOTP evidently doesn't work that way. I'll have guys who I bring up on their appointed destiny season, only to see them crash and burn. Then there will be the Bud Zipfels of this world that go all Triple Crown some year, when the dude never did much of squat his entire REAL career.

In a way, I really like this, as it makes the game somewhat unpredicatable. But I'd like to understand the phenomena better. My scouts, even if I edit them to be perfect across the board, still give me intel that is spotty at best.

I use the recalc function, which just screws with my head more - since Bud Zipfel or Don Dillard will hit .300 with 30 homers one year, and be someone's castoff the next. Maybe realistic, but not too much so, in that they don't even get ABs after their stellar previous year.

Have posed the same conundrums in several areas, but have yet to really get a satisfactory answer.

Perhaps because no such answer exists?

clamel · 09-04-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SittingDuck

Man, that is smart. I posted something about this in the historicals section about making initial contracts in a full history historical league. It is along these lines, but you're absolutely right - especially in the Jan-Apr months you have to alter the values because the resigning is way too easy.

Good call! Here's how I'm going to run it:

Jan -> Apr31
55-0-30-15

May
55-5-30-10

June
55-10-30-5

July
55-15-25-5

August
55-20-20-5

Sept -> End of Playoffs
55-25-20-0

Start of Offseason -> Dec31
55-30-15-0

Now I must ask what thread you talked about initial contracts on historical dynasties. I have major troubles on this. Player get very strange contracts IMHO. Something might have to do with this rating. I use current stats very high or lets say about 35-30-20-15, and now I grasp this current stat is ZERO in january.
I was under impression (wrongly) that I was helping the AI to look at the RL stats for the year I start playing, but that´s wrong isn´t it ?

EDIT PS I found it, very instructional indeed Thanks Sitting Duck
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...istorical.html

Rondell Tate · 09-09-2008, 07:55 PM

If my coach says "I hope they fall for this one" ... I forget the exact words, but it's close enough ... I don't do the deal.
When I draft, I generally take the scout's recommendation from about the fourth round on, so I don't package a bunch of those garbage picks I don't care about for a first-rounder.
I also weakened the fictional players (so that they can make the majors if I need a spare part but 99.99% will not be any good), and I won't package a bunch of those permanent minor leaguers that I know are damaged goods for one real gem of a player.

Otherwise, I always have a weakness for potential over proven track records (it's why I never win my Rotisserie leagues), so my tendency to trade a quality 31-year-old slugger for a hot prospect, two so-sos and a draft pick keeps me from succeeding anyways.

OldFatGuy · 09-11-2008, 01:12 PM

I'm curious as to whether anyone's tried something I just thought of. Since time goes so slow in my universe, I thought I'd ask in case someone else had tried it and I wouldn't have to wait to find out.

Has anyone tried changing the way the AI evaluates players to 100% prior to any trade offers to see if that in any way makes the computer a more challenging foe in trades?

I know I got one steal with a guy who had very good ratings but was a bench player with little and unimpressive stats, and thought maybe that's why the AI might have undervalued him, at least undervalued him IMO. FWIW, after acquiring him last offseason, he know leads my team in HR's, RS, SB (leadoff hitter, with pop, Soriano like, otherwise he'd probably lead in RBI's too if in the middle of the order)and is hitting over .300 as we enter the home stretch in September. So, his ratings didn't lie.

09-09-2008, 07:55 PM	#51
Rondell Tate Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 169	If my coach says "I hope they fall for this one" ... I forget the exact words, but it's close enough ... I don't do the deal. When I draft, I generally take the scout's recommendation from about the fourth round on, so I don't package a bunch of those garbage picks I don't care about for a first-rounder. I also weakened the fictional players (so that they can make the majors if I need a spare part but 99.99% will not be any good), and I won't package a bunch of those permanent minor leaguers that I know are damaged goods for one real gem of a player. Otherwise, I always have a weakness for potential over proven track records (it's why I never win my Rotisserie leagues), so my tendency to trade a quality 31-year-old slugger for a hot prospect, two so-sos and a draft pick keeps me from succeeding anyways. Last edited by Rondell Tate; 09-09-2008 at 07:58 PM. Reason: typo

08-31-2008, 01:19 PM	#41
oldtime Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 127	I always play fictional leagues, and never use the scouting system (hiring better scouts and coaches gives you an advantage). but here are a few ideas for playing the game with different challenges. a) play with ratings set at only 1-5 ( or even off ) for greater mystery to potential and ability. b) play with financials off, and do not allow any trades. this places a premium on your draft, player development, and game managing skills. I played a fictional "town ball " league like this an really enjoyed it. Started after WWII with the idea of guys who worked in the steel mills of PA would play games at night and on the weekend for their towns, but would stay local and not be traded. c) after building team into a dynasty, take over an expansion team with very low financials and build it into a dynasty. d) Set financials with a generous cash maximum and turn off owner decides on budget. Then put yourself on a payroll budget ( like 70 million ). I did this with real MLB rosters in OOTP 6.5 and in addtion to trying to win championships, I set a goal a getting to the 100 Million Cash level. It gets tricky in how much you have to win to make money, without spending too much to win. You need to cut loose popular players to stay in budget, but not hurt attendence. In my fictional leagues I also like to reduce th 40 man roster to about 32 (waiver rule disabled). This makes it harder to just stockpile young players as you will lose them to the Rule 5 draft. With financials off, and rule 5 set to 3 years, it makes it your player evaluations very difficult.

08-31-2008, 04:28 PM	#42
Bottom Of The Sixth All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 1,255	Do you guys suggest if starting a brand new league, where all players start with NO stats at all, that the ratings should be 100-0-0-0? If so, at what points during the league's 1st year should these ratings change and by how much? I'm guessing that since none of the players will have any past stats, that the numbers would adjust just for rating and current stats for the 1st full year. In the leagues 2nd year, the numbers would just adjust for rating, current stats, & last year's stats. Year #3 is where I could adjust my ratings according to the examples you provided.

08-31-2008, 08:33 PM	#43
Simon_Nesbit Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 260	My favourite league (now nearly 80 seasons strong) I use the following: Hard, favor prospects. 25 man roster, 50 man extended. (I hate losing younger players to rule 5, but without it, you build impossible depth). I can make one trade offer per day in pre-season/free agency and the week before trade deadline. Any other time I can make one trade offer per month. I can 'talk' to managers at any time (shop around). I try and weasel every last bit out of a trade. 3-1, 4-1, 5-1. MR's to SP's, etc. However: I make deals based on how it benefits the other team. For example: I have a 34-year old SS - great defense (6-time GG), above average hitting (career .320 hitter with decent power - though in definite decline). I also have a young (26) SS who's a future superstar (8/10/9) and is hitting .280 in a backup role. So it's time for the older guy (club legend too ) to move on. So I look around. I won't trade to any team in my Division. I won't trade to a team that's unlikely to make post-season. I won't trade to a team that doesn't have SS as a weakness, or has a SS that plays elsewhere. I won't trade to a team where his salary will be beyond what they can afford in the future. I won't trade to a team where his salary is substantially greater than that of other, better players. I'm left with just two possible teams. As it's mid-season, I put an offer in to one - to see what they will give me. By adding in two OF scrubs, and a decent long-relief type MR, I can swing a good SP prospect from their AAA club. From their perspective - they are losing their 8th best pitcher, and getting in what would be their 14th - though without as much stamina, some supporting cast OFers, and a five-star SS, who might only have a season or two left. If they do the trade, they would drop off a 21 yo 2B to AAA, who is entirely unsuitable to majors (2/3/4 current, hitting .140) and greatly strengthen their lineup. They are 6 games back, but only 1 from the wildcard slot. Their pitching is relatively young (34, 26, 23, 29, 30, 32) and they have other young prospects (though aren't as good) who could step up. I sit on this offer for a week, whilst I make a similar offer to the other team. The other team is 14 games clear in 1st, and have a dominating lineup, though their pitching is only good. Their only hole is SS, they have a poor-fielding 34 yo SS who can't hit to save his life - he earns 350k, in a club with a 132 million payroll. And he's their best option? They are VERY keen for the deal it seems, offering up their #2 pitcher (27, 8/7/7 now, 10/8/7 pot) straight up. They also put up their reserve 3B, who despite low ratings (5/6/5) is only 26 and has potential (7/8/8) to go with incredible defense. The problem I have, is their rotation is old (35, 27, 36, 33, 29) and they have basically nothing in the system. Their starting 3B is 29, so their reserve is a much better option for them. They are also most likely to make the World Series - in which case I could be directly strengthening my opponent (should I get there). In the end, I chose the first team's trade, for a couple of reasons. 1. If the trade allowed them to reach WS, they wouldn't be as good as the second team. I didn't want to create a 'juggernaut'. 2. The player I got in return, could stay at AAA, without having to clear waivers. He was also two years younger, allowing for some further development potentially. Wow, that got long. ***** In summary, I only trade if I can justify it as the other team. (It also helps you get to know the other teams and players, especially in fictional leagues).

08-31-2008, 08:59 PM	#44
bigMatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 2,378	SN, loved reading your thought process on trading. As I play solo with a historical team (beginning with expansion draft in '61 forward), I'm constantly wondering how to curb my ability to rig trades with my future knowledge of how some of these players are supposed to develop. I'm going to take your model and play around with it to see how it works for me. Thanks for sharing.

09-01-2008, 08:24 AM	#45
Simon_Nesbit Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 260	BM, in historical leagues (real players) I turn potential 'off' (well 1-5 for easy sorting at draft, then off)

09-01-2008, 03:25 PM	#46
SittingDuck All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 1,834	Sixth, Go back to posts 18 & 19 of this thread. Check out some things there. I agree that for a no-history, no-stat league for the first year you go with 100% stats. You might change that after the break to include a percentage for the current year stats. Those other posts referenced above have more food for thought as to how you might want to proceed, given your desired level of involvement. However, if you just want to have an ultimate setting that is 'permanent', then I suppose you'll want to change to something for the second season and then finalize in the third, as you mention. But remember, the months of Jan-April are a special time period, as those other posts point out.

09-02-2008, 11:55 PM	#48
Simon_Nesbit Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 260	I'm just talking about the 'show ratings'

09-11-2008, 01:12 PM	#52
OldFatGuy All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern Va., Loudoun County Posts: 1,900	I'm curious as to whether anyone's tried something I just thought of. Since time goes so slow in my universe, I thought I'd ask in case someone else had tried it and I wouldn't have to wait to find out. Has anyone tried changing the way the AI evaluates players to 100% prior to any trade offers to see if that in any way makes the computer a more challenging foe in trades? I know I got one steal with a guy who had very good ratings but was a bench player with little and unimpressive stats, and thought maybe that's why the AI might have undervalued him, at least undervalued him IMO. FWIW, after acquiring him last offseason, he know leads my team in HR's, RS, SB (leadoff hitter, with pop, Soriano like, otherwise he'd probably lead in RBI's too if in the middle of the order)and is hitting over .300 as we enter the home stretch in September. So, his ratings didn't lie.