MVP Considerations

[Carplos]

Originally posted by Aadik


I gotta agree with Carplos here.. I couldnt believe there are still people who buy into that winner bull****..... my god, its like the spwan of Cam Bonifay ...

That's not really my main reason for telling him to shutup, it just helped the feeling along.

[AngelinOF]

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
People baseball is more than just raw data, ask any manager and he will tell you. You guys have gotten so used to playing computer simulations (like ootp4) that you have forgotten that it is not the same in real live baseball!

Raw data is very important when someone makes a statement with no facts to back it up, you stated that Jeter gets more productivity from the top then Rodriguez does and thus the Yankees have more scoring chances? Stats prove that statement wrong since Jeter doesn't really get on base anymore than Rodriguez. They have virtually the same hits, average, & OBP and one could actually argue that because Rodriguez hits for more power that he would create more scoring chances.

[Red Blow]

Originally posted by Highlander
ARod is the best player in baseball.....bar none. Anyone who wants to argue Bonds or Vlad, I have one response. ARod is a shortstop!!!!

It will be a much closer comparison once A-Rod is Bonds' age, but....

2002 Bonds .367, 41HR, 162BB, 53 intentional
2002 A-Rod .315, 50HR, 72BB, 10 intentional

If 43 of those IBB were regular AB, Bonds could have 46HR.
If 90 of those BB were regular AB, Bonds would have 51HR.

Maybe the pitchers should vote on MVP.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Sigh, I try and add a touch of class and sage wisdom to this site yet all of you children are so bent on having stats be the decider on which player is the best. I should have known that you do not have the understanding of what the game of baseball is all about. You have been raised during the computer age, the espn age where it is all about numbers and crotch grabbing or who slams the most or who has the gaudiest numbers. You just don't seem to grasp the beauty of the game. Baseball is not about the $250 million that Arod makes or Mark McGwire's muscular frame ripping homers out of the park, it is about Don Kessinger gliding into the six hole and making a graceful putout. It is about what Joe Garigiola called the game in a game, where the pitcher and catcher try and figure out a way to stop Lou Brock from stealing 2nd base. There was a time when Baseball truly was a game, now it is just a conglomeration of numbers, who makes how many millions and how many guys will hit 50 homeruns this year, how many players are on steroids....

Sigh, life truly is wasted on the youth

[Goody]

Since the Yanks like to shell out money willy nilly, A-Rod and the Yankees would go GREAT together!

[Goody]

Red Blow...also Bonds plays in better hitter's parks.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by Portlander
Red Blow...also Bonds plays in better hitter's parks.

tell me you didnt come by this opinion yourself... have you even looked at the park factors ? Pac Bell has been the among the toughest park on left handed power hitters since its inception...
If anything, it puts Bonds achievements in greater context..

[fantom1979]

Originally posted by Aadik


tell me you didnt come by this opinion yourself... have you even looked at the park factors ? Pac Bell has been the among the toughest park on left handed power hitters since its inception...
If anything, it puts Bonds achievements in greater context..

I still disagree with this, but i know you have numbers to "prove it" so i am not going to take this any farther. I just look down the right field line and know its not a pitchers park. I could hit the foul pole in right with my pitching wedge from home plate.

[CMH]

Since when did Steve make someone Ruler of the Boards?

Telling people to shut up, that they are stupid, etc. is childish. Grow up!

How dare you come in here and act tough b/c you are typing in front of a screen.

THIS IS A BASEBALL DISCUSSION!

Everyone has their own opinions. Express yours, just as others will express theirs. Calling people names is uncalled for.

MaG has his opinion on the MVP award. Good for him. Many may not agree, but just tell him that. Dont call him names. Its not necessary. Just explain your position and kindly explain how it differs from his and that you dont agree with his position.

Grow up! pathetic.

[ehrie]

Sigh, I try and add a touch of class and sage wisdom to this site yet all of you children are so bent on having stats be the decider on which player is the best. I should have known that you do not have the understanding of what the game of baseball is all about. You have been raised during the computer age, the espn age where it is all about numbers and crotch grabbing or who slams the most or who has the gaudiest numbers. You just don't seem to grasp the beauty of the game. Baseball is not about the $250 million that Arod makes or Mark McGwire's muscular frame ripping homers out of the park, it is about Don Kessinger gliding into the six hole and making a graceful putout. It is about what Joe Garigiola called the game in a game, where the pitcher and catcher try and figure out a way to stop Lou Brock from stealing 2nd base. There was a time when Baseball truly was a game, now it is just a conglomeration of numbers, who makes how many millions and how many guys will hit 50 homeruns this year, how many players are on steroids.... ,

Once there is some objective way of measuring all these intangables you talk about, then I will weigh them more heavily, but for now production is my game. ^_^ My problem is there is simply no objective way of measuring anything you are talking about so how can you possibly include it in a discussion where you are trying to come to an objective conclusion on an award? We all have our own subjective MVPs. Hell, when I was a child Don Mattingly was MVP every year!

[Red Blow]

Baseball is a stats-driven game. The awards are stats-driven. With the possible exception of Manager of the Year, name a significant award that is not dependant on stats?

I could easily say Craig Counsell means more to my team than any other single player (the same for Eckstein of the Angels), but that does not make him a league MVP.

I would agree that the ability to make those around you play better is a factor in determining MVP (Magic Johnson of the '80s Lakers), but it is somewhat hard to equate that in baseball outside of protecting another hitter in the line-up (Maris' 61 homers with Mick behind him most of the way).

[ehrie]

In an ESPN chat some time ago Bill James remarked this when someone asked him about why peopel aren't more accepting of sabermaterics and statistical judging right now. I'm paraphrasing here because I can't find the actual transcript. He said, "Through sabermetrics are are coming close to gaining an understanding and analysis of the game without having to watch or play it and that scares a lot of people who play baseball and feel their playing gives them a unique insight that no one who doesn't play could possibly have. Also, sabermetics is proving a lot of century old "truths" about baseball wrong."

I respect the subjective "My eyes tell me who is the best" point of view, but it's hard when the two sides clash. The fact of the matter is our eyes will always be subjective, that's just the way humans are and in my view, numbers don't lie as easily as what our eyes perceive.

[Carplos]

Originally posted by Portlander
Red Blow...also Bonds plays in better hitter's parks.

Didn't we do enough to dispel that BS in another thread? Eesh. ESPN mentions it every game now. "Pac Bell is the best pitchers' park in the NL." "Hardest park to hit home runs in the NL". etc. etc.

[Dwolfson20]

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

For now I will stick with my opinion that Jeter is more valuable to the Yankees than Arod is too the Rangers, based upon wins and losses, based upon placement in the standings!

Rondell White is more valuable than Alex Rodriguez.

Could you not justify that statment based on the above logic? It's more than just how the team does. You can find out using statistics how many runs a player creates and use that to compare players. The bottom line in baseball at the end of the game is, the team with more runs wins. So if a player is more productive and creates more runs than someone else, wouldn't you say that the player would improve the team were he to switch? Sure there are other things players can do to help a team win (like preventing runs), but none of them are nearly as significant a factor in the outcome of a game as run production is. You also can't make any conjectures about a player's role in the clubhouse since we just don't know that information.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by fantom1979


I still disagree with this, but i know you have numbers to "prove it" so i am not going to take this any farther. I just look down the right field line and know its not a pitchers park. I could hit the foul pole in right with my pitching wedge from home plate.

Park Factors through May 17... check out pac bell..
from Baseball Prospectus..

2002 99-01 00-02 Diff

Anaheim 930 1029 1003 -99
Arizona 1073 1014 1047 59
Atlanta 1111 982 1038 129
Baltimore 909 963 943 -54
Boston 1001 1023 1008 -22
Chicago Cubs 958 984 951 -26
Chi. White Sox 1045 1026 1047 19
Cincinnati 1180 1018 1082 162
Cleveland 1026 1026 1025 0
Colorado 1017 1208 1139 -191
Detroit 994 990 991 4
Florida 1024 954 986 70
Houston 1130 1060 1083 70
Kansas City 992 1054 1044 -62
Los Angeles 982 938 942 44
Milwaukee 885 1001 943 -116
Minnesota 1000 1053 1035 -53
Montreal 976 1025 1006 -49
NY Mets 1002 945 958 57
NY Yankees 1028 982 1020 46
Oakland 1148 976 1029 172
Philadelphia 912 1002 966 -90
Pittsburgh 1015 997 1006 18
St Louis 975 1000 995 -25
San Diego 911 934 917 -23
San Francisco 899 920 913 -21
Seattle 883 933 916 -50
Tampa Bay 979 1003 994 -24
Texas 1064 1033 1040 31
Toronto 1012 1038 1034 -26

[twins15]

Can you explain these numbers? I, for one, don't really understand them.

[Crapshoot]

twins15, the table is hard to read..my mistake... Ill post the link..

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ne...avenport.shtml
The above is an article with the table in it...

Basically, Park Factors are a meausre of the park's effect on run scoring... 1000 is the base case. Numbers above 1000 indicate that a park is hitter friendly, or helps create more runs... A park factor of 1100 would indicate that it increases runs by about 10%.... Pac Bell has a Park Factor of 920 from 99-01, indicating that run scoring was decreased in that park, and it was a "pitchers park"

[fantom1979]

Originally posted by Aadik
twins15, the table is hard to read..my mistake... Ill post the link..

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ne...avenport.shtml
The above is an article with the table in it...

Basically, Park Factors are a meausre of the park's effect on run scoring... 1000 is the base case. Numbers above 1000 indicate that a park is hitter friendly, or helps create more runs... A park factor of 1100 would indicate that it increases runs by about 10%.... Pac Bell has a Park Factor of 920 from 99-01, indicating that run scoring was decreased in that park, and it was a "pitchers park"

Is this just for homeruns or overall hitting? Comerica Park is a horrible place to hit homeruns, but due to the pure size of the field, its easier to hit doubles and triples. I really dont want to go to far off topic here, this arguement has already happened on another thread, and its not fair to hijack this one.

[Carplos]

Originally posted by fantom1979


Is this just for homeruns or overall hitting? Comerica Park is a horrible place to hit homeruns, but due to the pure size of the field, its easier to hit doubles and triples. I really dont want to go to far off topic here, this arguement has already happened on another thread, and its not fair to hijack this one.

The park factors at BP are overall, not sure how they figure them out. I use the more traditional factors that Stats Inc/etc use when talking about them.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Originally posted by Dwolfson20


Rondell White is more valuable than Alex Rodriguez.

Could you not justify that statment based on the above logic? It's more than just how the team does. You can find out using statistics how many runs a player creates and use that to compare players. The bottom line in baseball at the end of the game is, the team with more runs wins. So if a player is more productive and creates more runs than someone else, wouldn't you say that the player would improve the team were he to switch? Sure there are other things players can do to help a team win (like preventing runs), but none of them are nearly as significant a factor in the outcome of a game as run production is. You also can't make any conjectures about a player's role in the clubhouse since we just don't know that information.

Very logical and very well thought comments. However in the end I would still vote for Jeter of Arod in the 2002 season, hmm let me change that, I would vote for Soriano over Arod this year