Ichiro - Page 3

drprestwood · 08-31-2002, 03:01 PM

This thread is stupid. I agree.

The fundamental misunderstanding:

If somebody hitting .340 is a .300 hitter, then somebody hitting .406 is also a .300 hitter. As is somebody who bats 1.000. Also, somebody batting .357 is a .200 hitter. .300-.399 is an arbitrary category. The way y'all are defining it means that anybody hitting over .300 is a .300 hitter. If you're suggesting that they are a .3xx hitter, that's a different story. It's really an issue of semantics. You need to define your parameters early in the discussion.

CMH · 08-31-2002, 04:37 PM

drprestwood, i am defining the players as a .3xx hitter.

but do you tell your friend, Ichiro is a .3xx hitter. literally? no.

instead you would say he's a .300 hitter.

i've defended my knowledge behind this enough. trust me when i say people are misinterpreting my words. everyone here thinks i'm sayin that Ichiro is a straight forward .300 hitter. ONLY Fluharty understood exactly what i meant by .300 hitter.

if you all choose to ignore the interpretation of this just to sound right then go ahead. i know what i'm sayin. i've explained myself enough. if you cant get it from what i've said, too bad. move ahead, go to another thread...b/c i have.

Jason Moyer · 08-31-2002, 04:40 PM

This has to be the most ******ed semantic debate in the history of this forum.

A guy who hits .3## every year is a .300 hitter. Tony Gwynn was a .300 hitter, Wade Boggs was a .300 hitter, etc.

Regardless of the semantics, .300 hitters who don't walk or hit for power are useless.

Jason

twins15 · 08-31-2002, 04:51 PM

Lat Yera during Ichiro's MVP season.

Ichiro- .350 AVG., .381 OBP, .457 SLG., .838 OPS, 8 HR.

Last Year for Bobby Abreu

Abreu- .289 AVG., .393 OBP, .543 SLG, .936 OPS, 31 HR

You be the judge of who is better.

Nirvana91 · 08-31-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twins15
Lat Yera during Ichiro's MVP season.

Ichiro- .350 AVG., .381 OBP, .457 SLG., .838 OPS, 8 HR.

Last Year for Bobby Abreu

Abreu- .289 AVG., .393 OBP, .543 SLG, .936 OPS, 31 HR

You be the judge of who is better.

Dude, anybody can find a set of stats that will make their player look better.

Last year Ichiro:
.350 Avg, 53 K, 56 SB, .506 OBP RISP, .558 OBP RISP/2 Out, 1 error, .997 fielding %

Last year Abreu
.289 Avg, 137 K, 36 SB, .414 OBP RISP, .435 OBP RISP/2 Out, 8 errors, .976 fielding %

In my opinion, Ichiro is a much better all around player. It all depends on what you value more.

twins15 · 08-31-2002, 05:21 PM

You may be right. Ichiro might be better, but he is not so much better that he should get 5 times the press time of Abreu. He's not so much better that he should be MVP and that (though I'm not positive) Abreu should get practically no consideration.

Jason Moyer · 08-31-2002, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nirvana91
In my opinion, Ichiro is a much better all around player. It all depends on what you value more.

The entire purpose of offense is creating runs, which Abreu does significantly better than Ichiro. I don't think anyone is debating that Ichiro was a better player last year if you factor in his defense, but his offensive dropoff this year has put Abreu well ahead, and I'm not even considering Vlad who was a much better player than both of them this year and last year.

Ichiro's speed is the only reason they're even close, and Abreu is stealing bases just as well as he is this year. As a hitter, Ichiro statistics pale to Abreu. The only things he has an advantage in are AVG, which is meaningless, K, which is only because he never takes a pitch, and GIDP, which is 7 to 11. 5 years from now Ichiro will be a .340/.400/.400 hitter with no speed or range and Abreu will be a .290/.420/.520 hitter with no speed or range and a cannon arm.

Jason

holyroller · 08-31-2002, 07:09 PM

Umm...the best RF in baseball is Sammy Sosa. Abreu and Vlad are both great and Ichiro is very good, but Sammy is the real deal.

Jason Moyer · 08-31-2002, 07:19 PM

Oof, forgot about Sammy.

Sammy is a great example of how much better a player can be if they stop swinging at everything.

Jason

KC · 08-31-2002, 09:39 PM

Ichiro is a throw back type of player, minus the sunglasses, that's why I like him. He slaps at the ball much like Ty Cobb, they way you saw Cobb swing on those old news reels. It's pretty cool to see a guy like that nowadays.

twins15 · 08-31-2002, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC
Ichiro is a throw back type of player, minus the sunglasses, that's why I like him. He slaps at the ball much like Ty Cobb, they way you saw Cobb swing on those old news reels. It's pretty cool to see a guy like that nowadays.

Ty Cobb also had an OBP of over .450 for about 10 years in a row. Ichiro's is about .400 this year. That is why I think, while he is still a very good player, he is a little overrated.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-01-2002, 03:39 PM

Bobby Abreu is just an Ichiro wannabe

twins15 · 09-01-2002, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
Bobby Abreu is just an Ichiro wannabe

Bobby Abreu was around before Ichiro.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 09-02-2002, 12:48 PM

Too bad nobody else knew that

Jason Moyer · 07-13-2004, 01:42 AM

Bump.

Crapshoot · 07-13-2004, 03:35 AM

what an inanely stupid thread- some real tear-jerkers here..

Skipaway · 07-13-2004, 03:55 AM

Dayn Perry: Whenever words like "overrated" or "underrated" are introduced into an argument, objectivity generally takes a holiday.

Skipaway · 07-13-2004, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twins15

Lat Yera during Ichiro's MVP season.

Ichiro- .350 AVG., .381 OBP, .457 SLG., .838 OPS, 8 HR.

Last Year for Bobby Abreu

Abreu- .289 AVG., .393 OBP, .543 SLG, .936 OPS, 31 HR

You be the judge of who is better.

WARP3
2001~2003
Ichiro 9.6 8.5 8.1
Abreu 8.0 8.7 8.2

Talking about overrated, I honestly think Ichiro is "underrated" and Abreu is "overrated" by lots of people around here.

I think you can get similar conclusions with win shares or super linear weights.

Anonymous Ghost · 07-13-2004, 04:34 AM

Hey twins15, didn't you used to have a cute brunette as your av? Why'd you switch?

Jason Moyer · 07-13-2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

I think you can get similar conclusions with win shares or super linear weights.

WSAA 03/first-half 04:

Abreu 17 13
Ichiro 7 0

I hope eventually someone gets around to building WSAA tables for every year.

Where are you getting WARP3 data from? I've been looking all over for decent WARP lists.

Jason

08-31-2002, 04:40 PM	#43
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	This has to be the most ******ed semantic debate in the history of this forum. A guy who hits .3## every year is a .300 hitter. Tony Gwynn was a .300 hitter, Wade Boggs was a .300 hitter, etc. Regardless of the semantics, .300 hitters who don't walk or hit for power are useless. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-31-2002, 04:51 PM	#44
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Lat Yera during Ichiro's MVP season. Ichiro- .350 AVG., .381 OBP, .457 SLG., .838 OPS, 8 HR. Last Year for Bobby Abreu Abreu- .289 AVG., .393 OBP, .543 SLG, .936 OPS, 31 HR You be the judge of who is better. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

08-31-2002, 05:21 PM	#46
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	You may be right. Ichiro might be better, but he is not so much better that he should get 5 times the press time of Abreu. He's not so much better that he should be MVP and that (though I'm not positive) Abreu should get practically no consideration. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

08-31-2002, 07:09 PM	#48
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Umm...the best RF in baseball is Sammy Sosa. Abreu and Vlad are both great and Ichiro is very good, but Sammy is the real deal. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

08-31-2002, 07:19 PM	#49
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	Oof, forgot about Sammy. Sammy is a great example of how much better a player can be if they stop swinging at everything. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-31-2002, 03:01 PM	#41
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	This thread is stupid. I agree. The fundamental misunderstanding: If somebody hitting .340 is a .300 hitter, then somebody hitting .406 is also a .300 hitter. As is somebody who bats 1.000. Also, somebody batting .357 is a .200 hitter. .300-.399 is an arbitrary category. The way y'all are defining it means that anybody hitting over .300 is a .300 hitter. If you're suggesting that they are a .3xx hitter, that's a different story. It's really an issue of semantics. You need to define your parameters early in the discussion.

08-31-2002, 04:37 PM	#42
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	drprestwood, i am defining the players as a .3xx hitter. but do you tell your friend, Ichiro is a .3xx hitter. literally? no. instead you would say he's a .300 hitter. i've defended my knowledge behind this enough. trust me when i say people are misinterpreting my words. everyone here thinks i'm sayin that Ichiro is a straight forward .300 hitter. ONLY Fluharty understood exactly what i meant by .300 hitter. if you all choose to ignore the interpretation of this just to sound right then go ahead. i know what i'm sayin. i've explained myself enough. if you cant get it from what i've said, too bad. move ahead, go to another thread...b/c i have.

08-31-2002, 09:39 PM	#50
KC Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: On my ass, you wanker. Now, sod off. Posts: 400	Ichiro is a throw back type of player, minus the sunglasses, that's why I like him. He slaps at the ball much like Ty Cobb, they way you saw Cobb swing on those old news reels. It's pretty cool to see a guy like that nowadays. __________________ KC Ted Williams: "When you foul a pitch off, does it ever smell like scorched wood?" Mark McGwire: "All the time."

09-01-2002, 03:39 PM	#52
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Bobby Abreu is just an Ichiro wannabe __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

09-02-2002, 12:48 PM	#54
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Too bad nobody else knew that __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

07-13-2004, 01:42 AM	#55
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	Bump. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

07-13-2004, 03:35 AM	#56
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	what an inanely stupid thread- some real tear-jerkers here.. __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

07-13-2004, 03:55 AM	#57
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Dayn Perry: Whenever words like "overrated" or "underrated" are introduced into an argument, objectivity generally takes a holiday. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

07-13-2004, 04:34 AM	#59
Anonymous Ghost All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 751	Hey twins15, didn't you used to have a cute brunette as your av? Why'd you switch?