CATO to OOTPB 2007 - Calling all programmers - Page 3

legendsport · 03-21-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Everything you named are in the exporter files and LNEWS.txt files in the game (LNEWS and the EXPORTER are both saved in the DATA files.) So again I stress the CATOBASE is not needed. Just the EXPORTER files saved in the CATOBASE\DATA folder. Leaderboards are a different story and are not saved in the CATOBASE data. They are created at page creation (that is why the program takes so long -WINshares and Leaderboards.)

True. I think the main issue isn't so much what or where the files are, it's more that you need to figure an automated way to convert them into lahman format so that OOTP can import it.

If I'm following the idea correctly, what would probably work is to make a Lahman-style db that mirrors the "real" Lahman (with teams.csv and so forth - not just batting.csv, fielding.csv and pitching.csv) because 2007 can import the league's history on creation - so if you got the Catobase stuff from your 6.5 league into a Lahman format, the sim could pull it in as if it were "real" MLB history.

Markus Heinsohn · 03-21-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

True. I think the main issue isn't so much what or where the files are, it's more that you need to figure an automated way to convert them into lahman format so that OOTP can import it.

If I'm following the idea correctly, what would probably work is to make a Lahman-style db that mirrors the "real" Lahman (with teams.csv and so forth - not just batting.csv, fielding.csv and pitching.csv) because 2007 can import the league's history on creation - so if you got the Catobase stuff from your 6.5 league into a Lahman format, the sim could pull it in as if it were "real" MLB history.

Bingo!

legendsport · 03-21-2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Bingo!

That's great to hear. It's just unfortunate that I have no Access or Excel macro creating skills at all. But hopefully one of the many folks in the community with those skills will be able to work something out.

SandMan · 03-21-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Bingo!

My exact thoughts also, but my concern was why this thread is making it seem like a big issue. It is a very simple program.

I program AS/400 RPG, DEC VAX COBOL, BASIC and C which all use flat files and routinely create scripts and programs to load and unload from RDB like oracle. A simple grab and format the data to text (csv) like the lahman database would or should not take but a day to analyze, create and test the whole program. Simple stuff really. I guess that is what confused me. It appears that some people are trying to make this more difficult that it needs be.

Sorry for the confusion but I have spent 2 years following the flow of the catobase program, analyzing what the program is doing during the many processes and have analyzed the Exporter to the MDB as well as the EXPORTER to Lahman structures. I posted over two years ago a plan to take MLB history from Lahman, put it into EXPORTER format and then import to CATOBASE. Test were positive and I gained a good knowledge of what all three data structures have in common and their ties within the CATOBASE program. The current project is just doing the opposite of what I had done and I don't see it being a problem at all.....

I wish I could offer assistance in this program but I no longer have VS6 on my pc. I may still have in my files the old Entitiy Relationship Diagrams that I created a few years ago. The link between the EXPORTER and Lahmans is the closest in terms of format. I will try to find them and post them if I can find them.

Regards,

Steve

legendsport · 03-21-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

My exact thoughts also, but my concern was why this thread is making it seem like a big issue. It is a very simple program.

I program AS/400 RPG, DEC VAX COBOL, BASIC and C which all use flat files and routinely create scripts and programs to load and unload from RDB like oracle. A simple grab and format the data to text (csv) like the lahman database would or should not take but a day to analyze, create and test the whole program. Simple stuff really. I guess that is what confused me. It appears that some people are trying to make this more difficult that it needs be.

Sorry for the confusion but I have spent 2 years following the flow of the catobase program, analyzing what the program is doing during the many processes and have analyzed the Exporter to the MDB as well as the EXPORTER to Lahman structures. I posted over two years ago a plan to take MLB history from Lahman, put it into EXPORTER format and then import to CATOBASE. Test were positive and I gained a good knowledge of what all three data structures have in common and their ties within the CATOBASE program. The current project is just doing the opposite of what I had done and I don't see it being a problem at all.....

Regards,

Steve

It does seem like it could be a simple fix - if you know how to manipulate the files (which I do not, so I'm not sure how easy it would be). It seems like you have a good handle on it though. Does this mean you could maybe put something together?

SandMan · 03-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

It does seem like it could be a simple fix - if you know how to manipulate the files (which I do not, so I'm not sure how easy it would be). It seems like you have a good handle on it though. Does this mean you could maybe put something together?

I would love to, but I don't have VS on my pc any longer. I manipulate with MS SQL server, ACCESS and sometimes EXCEL for personal use on my pc.

If this is utility is not posted by someone within a week or so I will look through my old cds and try to find my programming tools and I will create the program at that time if I have the disks.

The program I see will have 2 text boxes.
1. location of CATOBASE files
2. output location

I will keep tabs on this...

Another note:

Also to get the splits into the new game would be simple also and would be a very simple change on Markus' side of the import.

1. Create the Lahman files but for the splits change the file name to sometbing like Batting_vl.csv for batting versus lhp and so forth for each split group.

2. On the import side each import would be the same but when the file name changes the output is simply put into the splits fields rather than the batting fields. The record format is the exact same for all csv files. This can also be done for the pitching splits.

battists · 03-21-2007, 11:32 AM

Sandman,

The program is already completed.

We're waiting for Markus to work on importing the resulting files into OOTPB, and then testing that whole process. It's pretty much on hold due to code lock for another few days.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Raidergoo · 03-21-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

My exact thoughts also, but my concern was why this thread is making it seem like a big issue. It is a very simple program.

Yes, this much is true, I am told, but the people who wrote the converter have chosen not to state much in general discussions about it.

SandMan · 03-21-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Sandman,

The program is already completed.

We're waiting for Markus to work on importing the resulting files into OOTPB, and then testing that whole process. It's pretty much on hold due to code lock for another few days.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Makes perfectly sound sense.... thanks for the update. Did the batting and pitching splits get imported also? Just wondering...

Anxiously awaiting this version....

SandMan · 03-21-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Yes, this much is true, I am told, but the people who wrote the converter have chosen not to state much in general discussions about it.

I could have saved a few posts if SOMEONE would have stepped up before now and said it was done and awaiting final release and testing.

I guess I am just a little anxious with this version because it will be the first time I plan on bringing in my current leagues from an earlier version (6.5 with 100 years of history).... just don't want to see my league go to hell I guess....

Thanks for the update....

spiffamous · 03-21-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Sandman,

The program is already completed.

We're waiting for Markus to work on importing the resulting files into OOTPB, and then testing that whole process. It's pretty much on hold due to code lock for another few days.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Thanks for the update...sounds promising. I can't wait to see what the results are once this process can be tested.

Matt

Ryan W. · 03-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

I could have saved a few posts if SOMEONE would have stepped up before now and said it was done and awaiting final release and testing.

I guess I am just a little anxious with this version because it will be the first time I plan on bringing in my current leagues from an earlier version (6.5 with 100 years of history).... just don't want to see my league go to hell I guess....

Thanks for the update....

I guess you missed my post earlier in the thread saying it has been written and is currently being used in the beta forum...

SandMan · 03-21-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan W.

I guess you missed my post earlier in the thread saying it has been written and is currently being used in the beta forum...

See it now, must have missed it earlier. Bad habit - read to end, then come in the next day and read last page..... sometimes miss some of the posts......

battists · 03-21-2007, 01:41 PM

It's all good.

Now we just have to see what "the man" can do with it.

Killebrew · 03-21-2007, 01:51 PM

I should probably shut up about this but it really grinds my gears when companies and their reps try to pull the wool over customers eyes, and I fear there is some amount of inaccurate talk in this thread about this Cato-to-OOTP conversion. I really hope I am wrong about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

True. I think the main issue isn't so much what or where the files are, it's more that you need to figure an automated way to convert them into lahman format so that OOTP can import it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Bingo!

Markus, when I read a comment & reply like this I wonder if you have looked at this Cato-to-OOTP conversion yet. I have yet to see anyone else here respond to the real challenges of this CATO-to-OOTP project, that is probably because you are the only one here who can actually answer these questions:-). Getting the Catobase data into lahman format has always been an easy job and that point has been posted frequently. Automating that process (the completed app referred to in this thread) would certainly have been a challenge, but it's still a peice of cake compared to the job you will need to do in interpreting & using that Catobase/Lahman data for OOTP. I wish you luck in this task, and truly hope my scepticism about such an undertaking is unwarranted.

CATO-to-OOTP enhancement design concerns that have been posted in this thread or forum include:
1) How to connect/convert Catobase player keys to OOTP/Lahman player keys. This might be a stand alone project.
2) How to deal with Lahman data that Catobase does not store (null values for several Lahman fields). Sure OOTP can import a lahman format flat file, but what does that matter is required data is missing?
3) There is more than one active version of Catobase running, so data that might be part of the later release might not exists in the the earlier release. This point also impacts the 'Catobase-to-lahman-csv' automation program referred to in this thread.

Regarding whether OOTP/SI has any responsibility to support Catobase users: Of course they don't, but since Catobase provided significant user enhancements to OOTP (some Catobase features are still not in OOTP) it is understandable why Catobase users would be hesitant to switch to OOTPv2006/2007, and it is of great importance to OOTP/SI that as many of these people switch as possible. That would provide more income to them now as well more projected income for future releases. It would reduce support requirements for older versions, plus greatly increases online league interest (which in turn will also spur product sales increases).

battists · 03-21-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

I should probably shut up about this but it really grinds my gears when companies and their reps try to pull the wool over customers eyes, and I fear there is some amount of inaccurate talk in this thread about this Cato-to-OOTP conversion. I really hope I am wrong about this.

Killebrew, I think it's quite possible that the issues you mention will turn out to be problematic. No one has promised that this conversion utility will be delivered, nor have they described precisely how it would work. Markus has simply said, "If you can get the cato data into lahman format, I'll see what I can do with it."

Frankly, Markus doesn't know SQUAT about Cato. I don't say that in a mean way. I just say that because he's said as much before. He has simply never used it before. So, I think chances are high that he doesn't yet realize that Cato data isn't a square peg, with Lahman the square hole. He'll find that out when he starts looking at this more closely, I suspect.

So, I think it's likely that there are inaccuracies in this thread, and that this project will grind to a halt at some point over the very issues you mentioned, or similar ones.

That said, I think there's a VAST difference between people not fully understanding what might be involved in such a project and "companies and their reps trying to pull the wool over customers eyes".

Steve

Ryan W. · 03-21-2007, 03:55 PM

I am fully expecting that we are going to see problems with the data that I extract from Cato and I will be working with Markus and the rest of the beta team to make sure we can get as much data from the league into OOTP2007 as possible.

I agree that the complexity of the Cato->CSV was not that complex, but I feel confident that it won't be that complex as Markus already imports league history from the Lahman files for historical. The tough part, as Killebrew pointed out, is tying the Lahman ID to an OOTP ID. I have some ideas for that that I have discussed with Markus (mainly, using a key lookup of first name-last name-date of birth which should give a unique person).

As far as the multiple versions of Cato, I ran into that even with my beta set of files. One person sent me an earlier version which had a database field that existed in mine but didn't exist for someone else. I will try to get this working for everyone's version of Cato.

Killebrew · 03-21-2007, 05:06 PM

Thanks for the replies guys, and good luck to Markus and everyone here who is assisting on this challenge.

Bluenoser · 03-21-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killebrew

Regarding whether OOTP/SI has any responsibility to support Catobase users: Of course they don't, but since Catobase provided significant user enhancements to OOTP (some Catobase features are still not in OOTP) it is understandable why Catobase users would be hesitant to switch to OOTPv2006/2007, and it is of great importance to OOTP/SI that as many of these people switch as possible. That would provide more income to them now as well more projected income for future releases. It would reduce support requirements for older versions, plus greatly increases online league interest (which in turn will also spur product sales increases).

It may increase sales, but it will also increase comapny costs and workload, so that has to be taken into account as well.

Some leagues didn't convert to 2006 because of the loss of their CATO history, a lot of leagues didn't convert because of the UI, and because of all the problems and flaws with 2006.

How many 6.5 and previous leagues are out there now? I don't know, but I am willing to bet with or without the CATO conversion there will be a lot less at this time next year.

At some point every game advances to where it has to leave some things behind. With OOTP 2006 a lot was left behind, but with 2007 a lot of that has been brought back.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and mine is that if CATO doesn't get converted it won't hurt sales noticeably. Now that 2007 has brought the fun back, OOTP will continue to grow in popularity. If it's too time consuming and costly to get CATO in, both in $$$ & time wise, then it isn't worth it.

Killebrew · 03-21-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

It may increase sales, but it will also increase comapny costs and workload, so that has to be taken into account as well.

Some leagues didn't convert to 2006 because of the loss of their CATO history, a lot of leagues didn't convert because of the UI, and because of all the problems and flaws with 2006.

How many 6.5 and previous leagues are out there now? I don't know, but I am willing to bet with or without the CATO conversion there will be a lot less at this time next year.

At some point every game advances to where it has to leave some things behind. With OOTP 2006 a lot was left behind, but with 2007 a lot of that has been brought back.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and mine is that if CATO doesn't get converted it won't hurt sales noticeably. Now that 2007 has brought the fun back, OOTP will continue to grow in popularity. If it's too time consuming and costly to get CATO in, both in $$$ & time wise, then it isn't worth it.

I agree that fewer and fewer pre-OOTP2006 online leagues will be around as time moves on, but the addition of this feature would ensure that many of these leagues continue and convert to a new version of OOTP rather than disband outright. I think any effort made to help long-term OOTP online leagues survive will be a very good move for OOTP/SI, because for new users there lots of different online play options out there besides OOTP. Seeing many OOTP leagues that have been around 5+ real time years gives these new users much more confidence in this game title, and that in turn increases the game loyalty base (Geez I sound like Carl Rove here). Note that many purchasers of OOTP don't intend to ever play the game in solo mode.

It sounds like you would prefer that Markus not spend time on this feature, if that is accurate, why would you feel that way?

03-21-2007, 05:06 PM	#58
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	Thanks for the replies guys, and good luck to Markus and everyone here who is assisting on this challenge. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

03-21-2007, 11:32 AM	#47
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Sandman, The program is already completed. We're waiting for Markus to work on importing the resulting files into OOTPB, and then testing that whole process. It's pretty much on hold due to code lock for another few days. Not sure if that makes sense.

03-21-2007, 01:41 PM	#54
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	It's all good. Now we just have to see what "the man" can do with it.

03-21-2007, 03:55 PM	#57
Ryan W. Jack of all trades Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere, not sure where. Maybe nearby, maybe far away. Posts: 1,371	I am fully expecting that we are going to see problems with the data that I extract from Cato and I will be working with Markus and the rest of the beta team to make sure we can get as much data from the league into OOTP2007 as possible. I agree that the complexity of the Cato->CSV was not that complex, but I feel confident that it won't be that complex as Markus already imports league history from the Lahman files for historical. The tough part, as Killebrew pointed out, is tying the Lahman ID to an OOTP ID. I have some ideas for that that I have discussed with Markus (mainly, using a key lookup of first name-last name-date of birth which should give a unique person). As far as the multiple versions of Cato, I ran into that even with my beta set of files. One person sent me an earlier version which had a database field that existed in mine but didn't exist for someone else. I will try to get this working for everyone's version of Cato.