Cannot Demote Major Leaguers

[battists]

Alright, I have merged two related threads.

Obviously, this is a complex topic. Can someone help me get this to a point where I can test and confirm it effectively?

If you can give me an exact scenario, what steps I should take, what should happen, I will do my best to get this corrected ASAP.

[Zeyes]

Originally Posted by battists

If you can give me an exact scenario, what steps I should take, what should happen, I will do my best to get this corrected ASAP.

There's really surprisingly little to it:

If a player on your 40-man roster is put on waivers and clears them, it must be possible to remove (outright) him from the 40-man roster afterwards, barring the player's ability to veto the action (due to 5+ years of MLB service time***). This isn't possible to do in OOTP2006 at the moment, at least for human managers.

In reality, the scenario generally plays out in a little more specialized way:

A) Only players without remaining options get outrighted. At least I don't think I've ever seen a player get outrighted when he still had options available, but AFAIK it's not actually forbidden to do it.
B) Teams will generally DFA the player first because it allows them to clear the 40-man spot immediately (rather than have to wait for the waiver period to pass), but again this isn't technically necessary.

But the most basic scenario is simply what I've outlined above: player on the 40-man roster -> waivers -> if cleared, he can be tossed off the 40-man.

Also, as bp_ seems to imply above, when the AI does it right now, the player's MLB contract gets voided. This should not happen. He should stay on his major league contract, even after he's demoted to the minors and removed from the 40-man roster.

*** Technically, even for players below 5 years of service time, you're allowed to outright them only once in their career. I doubt it's possible to simulate that special rule in the game though (at least not in 2006), because it's not set up to keep track of the number of previous outrightings, and would probably require a change to the database architecture.

[Zeyes]

dola,

also, if I'm not mistaken, outright waivers should be irrevocable, so if the waived player is claimed, you cannot pull him back and keep him. I suspect that's another part that will be tough to include in the game, because it doesn't seem to differentiate between waiver types at the moment.

Edit: Eh, nevermind, I see it does mark waivers as irrevocable if the player is out of options. So that part already works, yay.

[troymcclure]

It's fairly simple. Here's an example: Joe Shortstop has a major league contract (usually for the minimum) and is on the 40-man roster but he is playing at AAA. He may or may not be out of options. As GM, I want to clear up a spot on the 40-man roster. I put Joe Shortstop on waivers, and designate him for assignment. This opens a spot on the 40-man roster. After he clears waivers I "outright" him back to his AAA team. He now has a minor league contract.

This how it worked in OOTP 6.5. As far as I know, it's also the way it works in MLB.

Guys with large contracts are really not an issue here. They almost always have enough ML service time to refuse assignment to the minors or enough talent that they don't get through waivers.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by troymcclure

It's fairly simple. Here's an example: Joe Shortstop has a major league contract (usually for the minimum) and is on the 40-man roster but he is playing at AAA. He may or may not be out of options. As GM, I want to clear up a spot on the 40-man roster. I put Joe Shortstop on waivers, and designate him for assignment. This opens a spot on the 40-man roster. After he clears waivers I "outright" him back to his AAA team. He now has a minor league contract.

This how it worked in OOTP 6.5. As far as I know, it's also the way it works in MLB.

You have it wrong. That's not how it works in the majors. Players sign GUARANTEED contracts or minor league contracts. Guaranteed contracts don't turn into minor league deals at any point in MLB (I believe they did before spring training in OOTP 6.5 however if it was a major league minimum deal and the player was in the minors). That's why it is called a guaranteed contract.

Also, IN OOTP 6.5 - if a player had a major league contract, you could waive him and if waivers expired you were forced to put that player back on your 40 man to place him at AAA. I'm not sure if the player ever refused the assignment after waivers BUT I know players refused a direct assignment to the minors w/o going on waivers first. BOTTOM LINE: OTTP 6.5 didn't let you put players with a major league contract in the minors without that player being on the 40-man roster.

[Solty]

Originally Posted by troymcclure

It's fairly simple. Here's an example: Joe Shortstop has a major league contract (usually for the minimum) and is on the 40-man roster but he is playing at AAA. He may or may not be out of options. As GM, I want to clear up a spot on the 40-man roster. I put Joe Shortstop on waivers, and designate him for assignment. This opens a spot on the 40-man roster. After he clears waivers I "outright" him back to his AAA team. He now has a minor league contract.

This how it worked in OOTP 6.5. As far as I know, it's also the way it works in MLB.

Guys with large contracts are really not an issue here. They almost always have enough ML service time to refuse assignment to the minors or enough talent that they don't get through waivers.

This last point is key. In the Bigs there are so many teams looking to fill niche roles that players of *any* value get claimed often. However, in a related thread someone pointed out Ryan Vogelsong of the Pirates as a good example of this actually happening. He was in the Bigs, DFA'd, placed on waivers, cleared waivers, and then outrighted to AAA (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...d=milb&cid=484). He is now not on their 40 man (http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/NA...n.jsp?c_id=pit).

[afail]

Originally Posted by Solty

This last point is key. In the Bigs there are so many teams looking to fill niche roles that players of *any* value get claimed often. However, in a related thread someone pointed out Ryan Vogelsong of the Pirates as a good example of this actually happening. He was in the Bigs, DFA'd, placed on waivers, cleared waivers, and then outrighted to AAA (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/a...d=milb&cid=484). He is now not on their 40 man (http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/NA...n.jsp?c_id=pit).

that was me thanks

but yeah, the contract should remain a major league contract even if they are not in the major leagues -- not all players with major league contracts need to be on the major league roster and at no point should a contract become a minor league contract once a major league contract has been issued.

If a player is given a major league contract at the minimum, then sent to AAA, THE NEXT SEASON he should receive a minor league contract (99% sure on this). He should not accumulate any major league service time despite a major league contract if he is not on the 25 man roster as well.

[Zeyes]

Originally Posted by afail

If a player is given a major league contract at the minimum, then sent to AAA, THE NEXT SEASON he should receive a minor league contract (99% sure on this).

Yes, unless he has enough service time for minor-league free agency.

[battists]

Originally Posted by Zeyes

If a player on your 40-man roster is put on waivers and clears them, it must be possible to remove (outright) him from the 40-man roster afterwards, barring the player's ability to veto the action (due to 5+ years of MLB service time***). This isn't possible to do in OOTP2006 at the moment, at least for human managers.

Alright, so here what I did. I took this player:



He was on the active and 40-man roster.

a. I waived him.
b. I did not designate him for assignment. (Should I have?)
c. He cleared waivers.
d. I demoted him to AAA. It worked.

He never touched the DFA world.

Is this what you mean?

(I'm sorry I'm so daft about this.)

Steve

[afail]

he had an option left - try it with a player out of options, wave him, dfa him, wait till he clears waviers, try to AAA him - in real life you should be able to do that

[Solty]

Originally Posted by bp_

BOTTOM LINE: OTTP 6.5 didn't let you put players with a major league contract in the minors without that player being on the 40-man roster.

Right, but you could easily do this if your 40 man was full in order to get a freshly claimed player into the minors (in OOTP6.5):

1). Claim Joe Shortstop
2). Place Joe Shortstop on waivers and wait for him to clear.
3). DFA Tommy Ballgame (Who was on the 40 man, but is now not on the 40 man)
4). Put Joe Shortstop on the 40 man.
5). Assign him to whichever affiliate you want.
6). Remove him from the 40 man.
7). Put Tommy Ballgame back on the 40 man.

I did this constantly. In fact, I constructed the vast majority of my organization this way, as I decided, for purposes of challenge, *not* to initiate any trades or sign any free agents.

However, in the big leagues, since steps 3, 4, 6, and 7 are largely procedural they are omitted (I think). Either way the process should be as follows:

1). Claim Joe Shortstop
2). Put Joe Shortstop on waivers and wait for him to clear.
3). Outright (assign) him to whichever affiliate you want.

As for guaranteed or not guaranteed contracts, I think this depends on the nature of the deal. For example:

1). The Twins sign FA Joe Shortstop to a 1 year deal for $300K during the offseason.
2). The Twins promote Tommy Ballgame from AAA to make his Major League debut in June, keep him on the roster for July, and then demote him back to AAA in August.

My belief is that Joe Shortstop sees the whole $300K, even if you send him down during spring training. However, Tommy Ballgame only gets 1 months of paychecks at the $300K rate (Major League minimum), and the rest of his paychecks are at his minor league pay rate.

The bottom line is that this aspect of roster moves is pretty trivial, and Markus and company have bigger fish to fry at the moment. If this was changed back to the old OOTP6.5 approach of "If you are in the bigs for 5 minutes at any time during the season you get paid at least $300K all year, even if you get sent down or released." that would be fine with me.

The inability to either remove a player from your 40 man once he's cleared waivers (and thereby the ability to claim a player who has a big league contract and outright him to your minor league system without him permanently taking a 40 man slot), on the other hand, is the biggest outstanding bug in my opinion.

Solty

[bp_]

Originally Posted by afail

he had an option left - try it with a player out of options, wave him, dfa him, wait till he clears waviers, try to AAA him - in real life you should be able to do that

Right - definitely DFA the player Steve. That is where the issue lies.

[afail]

Originally Posted by Solty

Right, but you could easily do this if your 40 man was full in order to get a freshly claimed player into the minors (in OOTP6.5):

1). Claim Joe Shortstop
2). Place Joe Shortstop on waivers and wait for him to clear.
3). DFA Tommy Ballgame (Who was on the 40 man, but is now not on the 40 man)
4). Put Joe Shortstop on the 40 man.
5). Assign him to whichever affiliate you want.
6). Remove him from the 40 man.
7). Put Tommy Ballgame back on the 40 man.

I did this constantly. In fact, I constructed the vast majority of my organization this way, as I decided, for purposes of challenge, *not* to initiate any trades or sign any free agents.

However, in the big leagues, since steps 3, 4, 6, and 7 are largely procedural they are omitted (I think). Either way the process should be as follows:

1). Claim Joe Shortstop
2). Put Joe Shortstop on waivers and wait for him to clear.
3). Outright (assign) him to whichever affiliate you want.

As for guaranteed or not guaranteed contracts, I think this depends on the nature of the deal. For example:

1). The Twins sign FA Joe Shortstop to a 1 year deal for $300K during the offseason.
2). The Twins promote Tommy Ballgame from AAA to make his Major League debut in June, keep him on the roster for July, and then demote him back to AAA in August.

My belief is that Joe Shortstop sees the whole $300K, even if you send him down during spring training. However, Tommy Ballgame only gets 1 months of paychecks at the $300K rate (Major League minimum), and the rest of his paychecks are at his minor league pay rate.

The bottom line is that this aspect of roster moves is pretty trivial, and Markus and company have bigger fish to fry at the moment. If this was changed back to the old OOTP6.5 approach of "If you are in the bigs for 5 minutes at any time during the season you get paid at least $300K all year, even if you get sent down or released." that would be fine with me.

The inability to either remove a player from your 40 man once he's cleared waivers (and thereby the ability to claim a player who has a big league contract and outright him to your minor league system without him permanently taking a 40 man slot), on the other hand, is the biggest outstanding bug in my opinion.

Solty

i am almost positive you aren't allowed to place a claimed player immediatly on waviers.

[Solty]

Originally Posted by battists

Alright, so here what I did. I took this player:



He was on the active and 40-man roster.

a. I waived him.
b. I did not designate him for assignment. (Should I have?)
c. He cleared waivers.
d. I demoted him to AAA. It worked.

He never touched the DFA world.

Is this what you mean?

(I'm sorry I'm so daft about this.)

Steve

Steve:

There are two issues that are muddying the waters here:

1). Demoting a player from the bigs to the minors when he is out of options. "Outrighting him to the minors."
2). Removing a player from the 40 man roster. "Outrighting him from the 40 man."

Your post (quoted above) is discussing Issue 1. Incidentally, your process was redundant, because he had an option. If he didn't have an option, then you'd need him to clear waivers before you could demote him.

What we're talking about is Issue 2. We'd like to be able take the player you just mentioned, option him to AAA, put him through waivers, and once he clears, remove him from the 40 man. See what I mean?

Solty

(Heading home for the weekend. Probably won't be back on the board until Monday. Send me a personal message or email if urgent.)

[battists]

Originally Posted by afail

he had an option left - try it with a player out of options, wave him, dfa him, wait till he clears waviers, try to AAA him - in real life you should be able to do that

OK, riddle me this:

Why do I need to DFA him? Is it because if I don't, he still takes up a slot on the 40-man until he clears?

[Solty]

Originally Posted by afail

i am almost positive you aren't allowed to place a claimed player immediatly on waviers.

That could be. I'm certainly not prepared to argue otherwise. But we could do that in 6.5, and we could do that pre-patch 1 in 2006. I think getting into waiver periods (which if you're right I suspect would be involved) is probably a down-the-road type of thing.

Solty

[afail]

you DFA him for 2 reasons:

1) If you DFA and he clears waviers, you can send him to AAA despite the fact he doesn't have an option year left

2) It opens up a slot on the 40 man roster

[Solty]

Originally Posted by battists

OK, riddle me this:

Why do I need to DFA him? Is it because if I don't, he still takes up a slot on the 40-man until he clears?

You don't *need* to DFA a guy ever. It's just the easiest way to free up a slot on either the active or 40 man temporarily while you decide what to do with him, or wait for him to clear waivers. I often put guys in the minors on waivers and keep them playing while I wait for them to clear.

Solty

[bp_]

Originally Posted by battists

OK, riddle me this:

Why do I need to DFA him? Is it because if I don't, he still takes up a slot on the 40-man until he clears?

Yes

[afail]

that is true, you don't have to DFA him ever - but 99% of the time your going to DFA him to get an open 25 man slot