VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1966 - Page 3

marc · 02-22-2006, 06:50 AM

Gotta say that I'm disappointed/stunned that Nunez didn't get in again. Next year I'll be campaigning for him because I think it's a crime.

We're talking about a guy who missed 2 years to the war and if he doesn't he's looking at about 2800 hits which places him around 15th all-time. EVERY SINGLE retired player infront of that mark is in the Hall and the 1 active player surely will be.

Very puzzling.

tward13 · 02-22-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

Gotta say that I'm disappointed/stunned that Nunez didn't get in again. Next year I'll be campaigning for him because I think it's a crime.

We're talking about a guy who missed 2 years to the war and if he doesn't he's looking at about 2800 hits which places him around 15th all-time. EVERY SINGLE retired player infront of that mark is in the Hall and the 1 active player surely will be.

Very puzzling.

Can't go by Cato. It's missing the early years. 2800 doesn't sniff the top 25. Right now #25 is 2972 hits. You need to look at Career leaders from the standings page. There were a lot of high hit totals in the early years of TWB. Long careers starting early.

Not to say a good campaign supporting Nunez wouldn't be worth it. you may just convince some of us. Personally I see him as a low power, average RBI 3B. When he retired he was on no top 25 lists, led the league once in hits, never won a major award. You'd have trouble convincing me he's worthy.

marc · 02-22-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tward13

Can't go by Cato. It's missing the early years. 2800 doesn't sniff the top 25. Right now #25 is 2972 hits. You need to look at Career leaders from the standings page. There were a lot of high hit totals in the early years of TWB. Long careers starting early.

Not to say a good campaign supporting Nunez wouldn't be worth it. you may just convince some of us. Personally I see him as a low power, average RBI 3B. When he retired he was on no top 25 lists, led the league once in hits, never won a major award. You'd have trouble convincing me he's worthy.

Ahh, forgot about the missing early histories. Regardless, I find it hard to believe that anyone above 2800 hits is out of the Hall of Fame, though correct me if I'm wrong.

fhomess · 02-22-2006, 07:59 PM

Some players not in the HOF with high hits totals:
2969 1B Michael Wrightson
2871 SS Ron Bennarivo
2822 CF Donny Engel

canadiancreed · 02-23-2006, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhomess

Some players not in the HOF with high hits totals:
2871 SS Ron Bennarivo

Most embarrassing exclusion from the Hall in TWB

Matt from TN · 02-23-2006, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhomess

Some players not in the HOF with high hits totals:
2969 1B Michael Wrightson
2871 SS Ron Bennarivo
2822 CF Donny Engel

All good Veteran's Committee candidates. I've pimped Wrightson for "years" now and have voted for Bennarivo every year he's been on the VC ballot.

You'll never convince me on Nunez. His leaderboard appearances are mediocre at best for a HOF candidate. During his career, I always viewed him as a very good supporting player, not a star and certainly not a HOF'er. Marc's shocked he's not in the Hall yet and I'm shocked he's still on the ballot honestly when you consider some of the players who dropped of this ballot quickly like Tobe Palmer, Ken Zinn, Flip DeLeon, Brett Smith and I think Juicy Shiflet, Charlie Mathews and Bill Sheeder too.

marc · 02-23-2006, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhomess

Some players not in the HOF with high hits totals:
2969 1B Michael Wrightson
2871 SS Ron Bennarivo
2822 CF Donny Engel

Ok, so my next skeptical remark is, are any of those guys .314 lifetime hitters???

DamnYankees · 02-23-2006, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

Ok, so my next skeptical remark is, are any of those guys .314 lifetime hitters???

Wrightson - .306

Bennariv0 - .279

Engel - .307

Wrightson had 44 doublea and 244 triples.

Bennarivo had 1476 walks, 458 doubles, 273 triples, and 135 HR.

Engel was a SS in the deadball era who hit 385 triples and stole 562 bases, and a 130 OPS+.

BA isn't everything.

PS: I only think Engel belongs in the hall.

marc · 02-23-2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Wrightson - .306

Bennariv0 - .279

Engel - .307

Wrightson had 44 doublea and 244 triples.

Bennarivo had 1476 walks, 458 doubles, 273 triples, and 135 HR.

Engel was a SS in the deadball era who hit 385 triples and stole 562 bases, and a 130 OPS+.

BA isn't everything.

PS: I only think Engel belongs in the hall.

BA is not everything, you are right. However, I've seen some insanely questionable players put into the Hall and I'm being told that there's no way a guy who hit .314 with 2400+ hits despite missing 2 prime years of his career should be in.

It just doesn't add up.

DamnYankees · 02-23-2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

BA is not everything, you are right. However, I've seen some insanely questionable players put into the Hall and I'm being told that there's no way a guy who hit .314 with 2400+ hits despite missing 2 prime years of his career should be in.

It just doesn't add up.

Who do you think is insanely questionable?

DamnYankees · 02-23-2006, 02:27 AM

dola,

Marc, also look at the Keltner test. See how Nunez would do in that - I think he'd do really poorly.

marc · 02-23-2006, 02:47 AM

I think he compares favorably to:

Glendon Zegri
Bobby Martin
Ogden Wing
Dave Arkless

Just to name a few.

Also, I'm not really a fan of criticizing who an individual votes for etc. but let me just make a blanket statement and say that there were NUMEROUS folks who didn't vote for Nunez who voted for other guys who didn't have anywhere near the career that Nunez had.

I guess you could say the above paragraph is my real problem in all of this.

tward13 · 02-23-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

I think he compares favorably to:

Glendon Zegri
Bobby Martin
Ogden Wing
Dave Arkless

Just to name a few.

Also, I'm not really a fan of criticizing who an individual votes for etc. but let me just make a blanket statement and say that there were NUMEROUS folks who didn't vote for Nunez who voted for other guys who didn't have anywhere near the career that Nunez had.

I guess you could say the above paragraph is my real problem in all of this.

No. Forgettign for a moment that Martin was a middle infielder and Nunez a 3B, Martin was a better hitter. (Don't check Cato, it's missing Martin's 1931 rookie season, the best rookie season in league history)

Avg-OBP-Slg

Nunez .314 - .358 - .454
Martin .319 - .393 - .859

G-AB-H-D-T-HR-RBI-R-BB

Nunez 2110 - 7753 - 2432 - 425 - 115 - 144 - 1151 - 1159 - 567
Martin 2272 - 8218 - 2623 - 548 - 139 - 124 - 1151 - 1349 - 1007

Martin had about one more season of games and ABs, but the difference in most categories are more than Nunez could put up in his best season.

Add in the additional impact of Martin's amazing .388 rookie average and it should be clear why Martin got in easily and Nunez struggles.

Vris · 02-23-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tward13

(Don't check Cato, it's missing Martin's 1931 rookie season, the best rookie season in league history)

Even though it was during the war era, Johnny Champagne's rookie season was pretty special (ROY and BOY).

DamnYankees · 02-23-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vris

Even though it was during the war era, Johnny Champagne's rookie season was pretty special (ROY and BOY).

My thought exactly when I read that sentence. Martin and Champagne clearly had two of the best (if not the two best) rookie seasons ever, but I think it's pretty clear Johnny's was the best.

tward13 · 02-23-2006, 02:36 PM

League history, as in National League.

I'm so used to looking at the NL records because I've been an NL GM.

Surprised Champagne was ROY considering he'd played 77 games before the war.

DamnYankees · 02-23-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tward13

Avg-OBP-Slg

Nunez .314 - .358 - .454
Martin .319 - .393 - .859

Bobby Martin slugged .859?

tward13 · 02-23-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Bobby Martin slugged .859?

Only if you include his OBP. But then it's still wrong (I really should have just stayed home)

Sorry. Bad morning apparently, that should be .465 for a .858 OPS

I give up.

jdw · 02-26-2006, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

If this were RL and we got 400 votes, he might get 5% to stay on the ballot simply because he was the slick-fielding SS of the 4-time world champion Tigers. He would quickly fall off though.

Nah. Voting for Castaneda and *not* voting for Ormiston off those same Tigers is only possible from too much crack.

John

jdw · 02-26-2006, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

After coming close last

Open and closed in three days. *sigh*

Some of us don't venture over here much anymore.

John, who would have voted for:

Hal Andrew
Lonny Arrendale
Mike Fellner
Hershel Lee
Maurice Misisca
Luther Ormiston
Corky Stell
Ted Stuart

02-22-2006, 07:59 PM	#44
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,688	Some players not in the HOF with high hits totals: 2969 1B Michael Wrightson 2871 SS Ron Bennarivo 2822 CF Donny Engel __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

02-22-2006, 06:50 AM	#41
marc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,505	Gotta say that I'm disappointed/stunned that Nunez didn't get in again. Next year I'll be campaigning for him because I think it's a crime. We're talking about a guy who missed 2 years to the war and if he doesn't he's looking at about 2800 hits which places him around 15th all-time. EVERY SINGLE retired player infront of that mark is in the Hall and the 1 active player surely will be. Very puzzling.

02-23-2006, 02:27 AM	#51
DamnYankees All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,644	dola, Marc, also look at the Keltner test. See how Nunez would do in that - I think he'd do really poorly.

02-23-2006, 02:47 AM	#52
marc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,505	I think he compares favorably to: Glendon Zegri Bobby Martin Ogden Wing Dave Arkless Just to name a few. Also, I'm not really a fan of criticizing who an individual votes for etc. but let me just make a blanket statement and say that there were NUMEROUS folks who didn't vote for Nunez who voted for other guys who didn't have anywhere near the career that Nunez had. I guess you could say the above paragraph is my real problem in all of this.

02-23-2006, 02:36 PM	#56
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,965	League history, as in National League. I'm so used to looking at the NL records because I've been an NL GM. Surprised Champagne was ROY considering he'd played 77 games before the war.