Sosa would rather retire than "beg for a spot"

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

...and the Chicago media loves him for it because it gives them something to write about.

This is usually where the issue is, not the players themselves. Baseball players aren't all great at PR, and are not selected based on their PR skills, but the media can't wait to expose that.

[swampdragon]

Frank Thomas was a truly great hitter, and I think the As will get their money's worth. He's one of the few people in baseball history whose season numbers could be taken out and randomly mixed in with Ted Williams' without looking out of context. I will be shocked if he's not a first ballot Hall of Fame inductee.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I will be shocked if he's not a first ballot Hall of Fame inductee.

I won't, but it will confirm my lack of faith in baseball writers.

[Luis_Rivera]

I'll be shocked if he's a first balloter because people will pull out the DH card. I'd say there will be a decent sized group that bands together to leave him off their ballots for a couple years based on principle that he spent more time DHing than 1Bing. Baseball writers r dum.

[His Own Bad Self]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I won't, but it will confirm my lack of faith in baseball writers.

You mean Bruce Sutter going into the Hall before Goose Gossage wasn't enough for you?

[His Own Bad Self]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

He was also a 2-time MVP. He could have had 3, but he finished second to the steroid-enhanced Jason Giambi in 2000.

True this. Speaking of Thomas' MVPs, I was going through my old Strat-O-Matic board game set from 1994 a few weeks ago, and I saw guys like Thomas, Belle, Gwynn, etc., and feeling sad all over again, that that year was wiped out.

I mean, remember what Jeff Bagwell did? .368/.451/.750, 39 HR, 116 RBI in 110 G.

Gwynn making a run at .400, Thomas going .353/.487/.729, Belle going .357/.438/.714. Griffey getting 40 bombs, Matt Williams getting 43. Kenny Lofton making a run at 100 steals, possibly. Greg Maddux with a 1.56 ERA. The Expos with the best record in baseball (!?!). The first year of the wild card. The AL West finishing with no one over .500.

Okay, that does it. I'm organizing a manhunt to find Bud Selig and Donald Fehr. Who's with me?

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by jdawgsenior

You mean Bruce Sutter going into the Hall before Goose Gossage wasn't enough for you?

Ehh, Sutter going in at all was more than enough. Horrid selection. One of the worst in the history of the HOF. And with much less excuse than the Frankie Frisch led Vet Committee selections, with our increased knowledge base.

[JDOldSchool]

Originally Posted by Jestor

I'd appreciate it if you didn't paint all White Sox fans with the same broad brush, thanks. I for one didn't want to see Thomas go and was hoping he'd recover from his injuries enough to be able to come back strong next year. I'll wish him well next season.

I wouldn't consider you typical then. I've been shocked at how much anti-Thomas sentiment there is out there. I never really realized how much Sox fans were just like Mike North. I apologize if I included you because it wasn't intentional.

[JDOldSchool]

dola,

Jestor, I should add that I consider you a member of the OOTP community in addition to being a Sox fan. Whether I agree with people here rarely changes the opinion that 95% of the people on this board are smarter baseball fans than the general fan. And the ones who aren't smarter almost always become smarter just by being here. It's surprisingly rare to find a message board with a thread where there are repeated posts actually supporting Frank Thomas' Hall of Fame induction.

More on Thomas: He's also a nice guy to fans. He might treat the media like crap, but he's nice to fans. He signs the autographs. He talks to people. I've got a cool story I probably told here before about my dad meeting him at SoxFest 2003. The man has his flaws like all of us do, but he's truly one of the more respectable athletes out there today.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Ehh, Sutter going in at all was more than enough. Horrid selection. One of the worst in the history of the HOF. And with much less excuse than the Frankie Frisch led Vet Committee selections, with our increased knowledge base.

I pretty much agree with everything in this post.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

dola,

Jestor, I should add that I consider you a member of the OOTP community in addition to being a Sox fan. Whether I agree with people here rarely changes the opinion that 95% of the people on this board are smarter baseball fans than the general fan. And the ones who aren't smarter almost always become smarter just by being here. It's surprisingly rare to find a message board with a thread where there are repeated posts actually supporting Frank Thomas' Hall of Fame induction.

More on Thomas: He's also a nice guy to fans. He might treat the media like crap, but he's nice to fans. He signs the autographs. He talks to people. I've got a cool story I probably told here before about my dad meeting him at SoxFest 2003. The man has his flaws like all of us do, but he's truly one of the more respectable athletes out there today.

He was here in ottawa last year during a rehab assignment. He was extremely nice to everyone. He probably signed an autograph for everyone in the stadium every day of the series. A great guy and he can still hit.

[darkhorse]

Media accounts of a player's character are to be taken with a boulder of salt. See Kirby Puckett/Pete Rose during their respective playing careers. And if writers/media don't get the reaction they want to guild an article, they'll lie, harass endlessly, and distort to meet that end. And, it's always amazing how high the percentage of so-called bad character people are men of color. But, it's surely only a coincidence.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

I was always a fan of Frank Thomas, and I always will be. I think he should be a first-ballot HOFer, especially considering the steroid cloud that hangs over many other 90's power hitters - that cloud doesn't taint Thomas's numbers.

Why not? Why is he any less likely to have taken steroids than, say, Jim Thome or Juan Gonzalez?

[JDOldSchool]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

And, it's always amazing how high the percentage of so-called bad character people are men of color. But, it's surely only a coincidence.

You mean like how Terrell Owens is the "worst teammate ever" but Bill Romanowski was just an intense competitor?

Originally Posted by mlyons

Why not? Why is he any less likely to have taken steroids than, say, Jim Thome or Juan Gonzalez?

Because he was calling for steroid testing long before most others? Because he tried to convince the entire White Sox team to skip their test to trigger a positive the year the testing was to see if use was over 5%? Oh, and he hasn't ballooned in size like other guys did. The weight he's added is clearly just weight added with aging.

It's always possible, I suppose, but if there's one guy who most people are certain has been clean it's Thomas.

[Nirvana91]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

dola,

Jestor, I should add that I consider you a member of the OOTP community in addition to being a Sox fan. Whether I agree with people here rarely changes the opinion that 95% of the people on this board are smarter baseball fans than the general fan. And the ones who aren't smarter almost always become smarter just by being here. It's surprisingly rare to find a message board with a thread where there are repeated posts actually supporting Frank Thomas' Hall of Fame induction.

More on Thomas: He's also a nice guy to fans. He might treat the media like crap, but he's nice to fans. He signs the autographs. He talks to people. I've got a cool story I probably told here before about my dad meeting him at SoxFest 2003. The man has his flaws like all of us do, but he's truly one of the more respectable athletes out there today.

Frank Thomas eats babies.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by Nirvana91

Frank Thomas eats babies.

Did he nibble on you?

[Hotblack Desiato]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Oh, and he hasn't ballooned in size like other guys did. The weight he's added is clearly just weight added with aging.

It's always possible, I suppose, but if there's one guy who most people are certain has been clean it's Palmeiro.

[Jestor]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

dola,

Jestor, I should add that I consider you a member of the OOTP community in addition to being a Sox fan. Whether I agree with people here rarely changes the opinion that 95% of the people on this board are smarter baseball fans than the general fan. And the ones who aren't smarter almost always become smarter just by being here. It's surprisingly rare to find a message board with a thread where there are repeated posts actually supporting Frank Thomas' Hall of Fame induction.

More on Thomas: He's also a nice guy to fans. He might treat the media like crap, but he's nice to fans. He signs the autographs. He talks to people. I've got a cool story I probably told here before about my dad meeting him at SoxFest 2003. The man has his flaws like all of us do, but he's truly one of the more respectable athletes out there today.

Thanks, JD

It's funny because I was just thinking about being sad about seeing Frank leave the White Sox and I thought of two of my good friends who are your typical Joe Schmoe type baseball fan. One loves Johnny Damon and became a BoSox fan during their 2004 Series title run, the other is a huge Mike Piazza fan and has had the Mets as one of his second teams since Piazza's been there (second team here referring to the teams that aren't your favourite team, but you like them and cheer for them too, unless they're against your favourite team).

The first one got really ticked when Damon went to the Yankees and the other wasn't too happy about Piazza going to the Padres because now he has to have a new second team to cheer for (in his own opinion) and he hates San Diego.

It's always sad to see a favourite player leave a team he's been with for a long time or that he's had sustained success with. Frank Thomas is especially poignant to me, not only because he played for the White Sox, but because he was with one team his entire career up till that point.

I love that. I love it when a player spends his entire career with one team and really becomes a part of the team culture in a way that part-timers can't. I wish more players did that, but that's sadly not the way today's market works, in baseball or in any other sport.

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Why not? Why is he any less likely to have taken steroids than, say, Jim Thome or Juan Gonzalez?

I agree with JD on this.

I remember when Thomas came up back in 1990 - the dude was HUGE! I clearly remember how he really just seemed to crowd the frame on my TV set when he stepped to the plate. Don't forget that he was played tight end at Auburn, too - not a position usually played by lightweights.

Also, if you look at Thomas's numbers, the power was there since day one, and there was never a particularly sharp increase or decrease relative to the rest of his career - his abbreviated 2005 notwithstanding, when he was pretty much trying to hit a home run with every swing because he could barely run. Thomas hit 32 home runs in his first full season - Rafael Palmeiro hit 16 home runs in his first two full seasons combined.

Personally, I find any allegations of Thomas and steroids to be completely ludicrous. Same for Thome, whose power numbers have consistenly been there since the beginning of his career.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

You mean like how Terrell Owens is the "worst teammate ever" but Bill Romanowski was just an intense competitor?

Bingo.