The official World Cup 2010 thread...

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Jordan

What is slightly embarrasing is that they got beat 4-1 by a German team that is missing quite a few of its best players.

Absolutely disagree here. The Germans have some magnificent young talent. It might actually be a blessing in disguise that Ballack got hurt. Perhaps at GK is the only place we can say Germany is missing its best player and that a tragic suicide.

[stevebydac]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

I'm not generally a 'little Englander', but there was an interesting piece in the NotW today about how Capello has done nothing with this England side, that we're still dependent on "spirit" and battling out results. So what benefit did we get from a European tactical genius? Absolutely none. It wasn't transmitted to the team. Our best player was stuck out of position on the left, we barely got a passing move going in the middle, defensively we were woeful.

I know nothing about football but it's not the manager's fault when his players don't get back on defense. I watched the highlights again and the Germans sprinted out for scoring chances while English players were either standing around at first or just jogging at half pace expecting someone else to mark German players. Whether it's NFL, hockey, basketball or int'l football, you can't let opposing players get behind your defense.

[javier_83]

We are out =(

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I made no presumptions. I used the words "I'd call the performances of these 3 sides a complete embarrassment in how they went out."

You obviously are ignorant on the subject if you dont think losing to a rival in the world cup the way they did was an embarrassment to them(players). Its not the US we are talking about it is England. They dont lose like that.

......and I spoke what I thought. What's the difference other than you think I'm ignorant basically because I disagreed with you.

As for the situations, I'm far from ignorant. I follow the English game very closely. I see/hear what the English fan/press say about the team/game all the time. So don't call me ignorant for disagreeing with you. And for the record, you never stated the PLAYERS were embarrassed in the first post. Don't change the direction just to make yourself seem correct. Now I'm finished arguing the point with you. You have your thoughts; I have mine, but let me assure you I'm far from ignorant of the situation. You, on the other hand, obviously are speaking from emotion (as you stated you were upset).

[Le Grande Orange]

Every time I hear about a controversial goal in the World Cup I can't but help think of Declan Hill's book The Fix in which he exposed the degree to which match-fixing is taking place.

After seeing the disallowed goal in the England-Germany match, and the first two goals in the Argentina-Mexico match, it seems difficult to me for someone to argue that match-fixing isn't taking place.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

......and I spoke what I thought. What's the difference other than you think I'm ignorant basically because I disagreed with you.

As for the situations, I'm far from ignorant. I follow the English game very closely. I see/hear what the English fan/press say about the team/game all the time. So don't call me ignorant for disagreeing with you. And for the record, you never stated the PLAYERS were embarrassed in the first post. Don't change the direction just to make yourself seem correct. Now I'm finished arguing the point with you. You have your thoughts; I have mine, but let me assure you I'm far from ignorant of the situation. You, on the other hand, obviously are speaking from emotion (as you stated you were upset).

For your information I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. Comments like "England was far from an embarrassment" without adding anything else to the comment makes you seem like you are asking for a reply like you got.

I just noticed this thread started in another forum I visit frequently so apparently there are some England fans that are having issues with their performance.

England Football Fans - Your opinions here - Grey Dog Software

Also, I highly doubt I said I was upset. I am actually very happy that a lot of the Euro teams are going down as like I had stated previously I have Argentina and South America to win the World Cup in my different future bets. Me being upset and me saying "Id be upset if..............I was a fan of a certain team" are different things.

Also here is an article on heartbroken England fans.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmo.../14537226.html

and how this was another in a long list of embarrassments
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/wo...embarrass.html

and yet another on how dreadful they were

http://blogs.reuters.com/soccer/2010...-be-surprised/



and there are many more I found that were similiar to this. But its always possible that myself and these few people are the only ones that feel this way. Perhaps everyone else think they played with tremendous effort and feel they should be proud of themselves.

[stevebydac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Every time I hear about a controversial goal in the World Cup I can't but help think of Declan Hill's book The Fix in which he exposed the degree to which match-fixing is taking place.

After seeing the disallowed goal in the England-Germany match, and the first two goals in the Argentina-Mexico match, it seems difficult to me for someone to argue that match-fixing isn't taking place.

LGO, I can see match-fixing on a local scale, but not at the World Cup. A Cup referee or player making a blatant mistake is in danger --- literally --- of getting killed by a fanatic if the mistake changes a game's outcome. Unless you would get millions from the fix, it's not worth the risk. Don't you think?

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

For your information I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. Comments like "England was far from an embarrassment" without adding anything else to the comment makes you seem like you are asking for a reply like you got.

I just noticed this thread started in another forum I visit frequently so apparently there are some England fans that are having issues with their performance.

England Football Fans - Your opinions here - Grey Dog Software

Also, I highly doubt I said I was upset. I am actually very happy that a lot of the Euro teams are going down as like I had stated previously I have Argentina and South America to win the World Cup in my different future bets. Me being upset and me saying "Id be upset if..............I was a fan of a certain team" are different things.

Also here is an article on heartbroken England fans.
German fans jacked, England fans dejected | Edmonton | News | Edmonton Sun

and how this was another in a long list of embarrassments
World Cup 2010: England's loss to Germany just another in recent soccer embarrassments

and yet another on how dreadful they were

England were dreadful but don’t be surprised | Analysis & Opinion |



and there are many more I found that were similiar to this. But its always possible that myself and these few people are the only ones that feel this way. Perhaps everyone else think they played with tremendous effort and feel they should be proud of themselves.

There's a link to a completely opposite view of England's WC for every one you can find, but I'm not looking for them just to prove a point that's basically not able to be proved either way. Some will be on one end of the spectrum while others will be on the other end.

And as for me 'asking for the reply I received'..............yeah, I asked for someone to be a dick with my post. Whatever dude.

Italy/France? Yes.....embarrassments. England, I, (note I said I) was not. Now please drop this idiotic line of posts as it adds nothing to an otherwise pretty enjoyable thread.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Now please drop this idiotic line of posts as it adds nothing to an otherwise pretty enjoyable thread.

I certainly will. I hope you will use the same courtesy as well in the future.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I think that England were way overvalued, considering they haven't won anything internationally in quite a few years, as it was earlier stated. They were overhyped because their manager is good, but they played with the same guys that hadn't won anything either.

What is slightly embarrasing is that they got beat 4-1 by a German team that is missing quite a few of its best players. I also think the fact that England didn't win the group is all the empirical evidence needed to show that they were overrated

The hype over the manager was that he was (supposedly) the one to get a collection of talented individuals playing effectively as a team; to marry his continental 'tactical genius' to the 'English spirit'. He failed to do that, essentially. Ultimately the style and effectiveness of play was no better than under previous managers and our big name players were as tactically naive as ever (though funnily enough, they're not for their clubs).

Five of today's starting XI would get into just about any club side in the world, perhaps barring Barcelona's midfield. Of those five, at least four are still at the top of Mourinho's wishlist for signings for Real Madrid. The rest aren't mugs. England's twin major problems for a decade have been a) how to get the best out of both Gerrard and Lampard and b) who to play on the left. Capello's answer - to play Gerrard on the left - was about as effective as any other. Not very.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by stevebydac

I know nothing about football but it's not the manager's fault when his players don't get back on defense. I watched the highlights again and the Germans sprinted out for scoring chances while English players were either standing around at first or just jogging at half pace expecting someone else to mark German players. Whether it's NFL, hockey, basketball or int'l football, you can't let opposing players get behind your defense.

There was some abysmal defending, but the first two German goals were both as a direct result of a managerial decision: to play Upson, rather than recalling Carragher. The tactical point about playing Upson (who is left footed) was that it made John Terry play "out of position", as he's played his entire career as the left-sided central defender (right footed, but with a reasonably good left foot). It's a subtle point with central defenders, but they are used to playing one side or the other. They will naturally gravitate towards play in certain areas, based on their usual behaviour. On both goals, Terry was way out of position, both too far to the left (out of position) and too far forwards (a club tactic, where he presses early, covered by his partner). Upson will take more of the blame, but he was 'squeezed' out of position by Terry. For both goals, this left a wide open space in behind which neither fullback or the keeper were able to close.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

The hype over the manager was that he was (supposedly) the one to get a collection of talented individuals playing effectively as a team; to marry his continental 'tactical genius' to the 'English spirit'. He failed to do that, essentially. Ultimately the style and effectiveness of play was no better than under previous managers and our big name players were as tactically naive as ever (though funnily enough, they're not for their clubs).

Five of today's starting XI would get into just about any club side in the world, perhaps barring Barcelona's midfield. Of those five, at least four are still at the top of Mourinho's wishlist for signings for Real Madrid. The rest aren't mugs. England's twin major problems for a decade have been a) how to get the best out of both Gerrard and Lampard and b) who to play on the left. Capello's answer - to play Gerrard on the left - was about as effective as any other. Not very.

Who are the five? I assume Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard, and Steven Gerrard (although I think the latter two would be left out of more than just Barcelona's midfield). Who's the fifth? Surely not Terry any more?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by stevebydac

LGO, I can see match-fixing on a local scale, but not at the World Cup. A Cup referee or player making a blatant mistake is in danger --- literally --- of getting killed by a fanatic if the mistake changes a game's outcome. Unless you would get millions from the fix, it's not worth the risk. Don't you think?

Three suspicious goals within two major World Cup games. Coincidence? Perhaps so. But a heck of a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

In any case, pick up Hill's book and give it a read. From my understanding it lays out a well-researched and well-supported case for match-fixing going on, including World Cup games.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Who are the five? I assume Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard, and Steven Gerrard (although I think the latter two would be left out of more than just Barcelona's midfield). Who's the fifth? Surely not Terry any more?

Yeah, Terry. Certainly not my favourite player and had a shocking WC, but still (or very recently) hailed by press and opposition (including European) managers as one of the best centre backs in Europe. The point with Terry is that he's rash and aggressive, but one of the best 'last ditch' defenders in the business, a similar style to Carragher. He needs a cooler player alongside him who can read the game and, I think, not be bullied by his personality. Upson was a mistake on both counts. On the evidence of the WC though, he's either feeling it after a long season or, as with Carragher about 18-24 months ago, his legs are going and he's on a terminal decline.

Gerrard and Lampard are both still in demand; Mourinho would pay £30m to take either to Real Madrid. If they stay in England they're both at the stage where their game will have to change a bit, sort of like Scholes did, but still quality players. Gerrard hasn't had a great tournament, especially from the left, but has probably been responsible for 75% of England's best passes near the opposition area (not counting Milner's crosses). Lampard was awful for the first two games, but probably the best English player in the last two; though still possibly the main culprit of us failing to pass the ball effectively (rolls simple passes too slowly, contrast to Gerrard or Barry).

I think someone said earlier England were 3rd favourites for the tournament. On squad strength, I'd say that was about right - with Spain and Argentina as the two strongest. Where England failed yet again, and I think it is an "embarassment", was in playing as a team. They just don't.

I can understand people thinking we overrate these players, but seeing them week in week out in the PL and CL, these are quality players. Gerrard, Cole, Terry, Lampard and Rooney play for big clubs surrounded by quality non-English players, but they are by and large the stars for those clubs, winning titles and Champions Leagues. James, Johnson, Milner and Barry are good players. We had a problem at CB after Ferdinand was injured, and never addressed the striker position properly (Emile Heskey hasn't been international standard apart from a spell of about 9 months about 10 years ago). Failing to address those and to solve the Gerrard/Lampard/left issue - and just getting us playing as a team - are the recurring cause of failure.

I'm not overly bothered by it. I'm not the most patriotic of fans and there are still 3 or 4 teams in the tournament I can happily "support". This batch of English players should have won something in their international careers and they haven't. That's their loss.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Three suspicious goals within two major World Cup games. Coincidence? Perhaps so. But a heck of a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

In any case, pick up Hill's book and give it a read. From my understanding it lays out a well-researched and well-supported case for match-fixing going on, including World Cup games.

I've not read it, but football lends itself to dodgy refereeing decisions - especially at the World Cup. The game is very fluid, fast moving and a with offsides in particular, very demanding of individuals being able to spot both the moment a pass is struck and the positioning of several moving players at that exact moment (often when the linesman cannot possibly see both things simultaneously). As for the WC, part of the problem is that by it's nature, it includes officials from countries which simply don't have the depth of quality to generate the speed of play seen at the top level, and don't officiate in such important games, under such pressure or noise from packed stadia.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

I think someone said earlier England were 3rd favourites for the tournament. On squad strength, I'd say that was about right - with Spain and Argentina as the two strongest. Where England failed yet again, and I think it is an "embarassment", was in playing as a team. They just don't.

What?? I dont agree at all. England were quite suspect in the back, a black hole at GK and have no creative midfielder. To say they were a better choice than Brazil, Holland, Germany. Paraguay, France, Italy and Portugal doesnt make sense to me.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

What?? I dont agree at all. England were quite suspect in the back, a black hole at GK and have no creative midfielder. To say they were a better choice than Brazil, Holland, Germany. Paraguay, France, Italy and Portugal doesnt make sense to me.

Paraguay?

Pre-tournament, bookies had England at 3rd favourites behind Spain and Brazil. Personally I think Brazil are (over) due an early exit and I think Argentina have the best squad at the world cup; but not necessarily the best manager. So ok, say England were about 4th. Well ahead, in theory, of France, Italy and Germany - all in a real period of transition. Portugal? Nah. Holland are a dark horse; but Holland are always a dark horse. If they avoid falling out with each other, they might have a decent tournament - and might knock out Brazil.

You're overstating problems at GK. Suspect at the back perhaps, not having a plan B when Ferdinand was injured; but most teams at this WC are somewhat suspect at the back. England have several 'creative' midfielders - there's more than one 'type' for the role. We didn't - and frequently don't - get the best out of them.

[rudel.dietrich]

A 4-1 clubbing and the loss is on England?
And the disallowed goal mattered little. Germany let up in the second half and still carved up England on the counter attacks and put two in the net.
If the score had been level Germany would have attacked more and scored anyways. They dominated play today in every aspect.


Bring on Argentina! I was not feeling very confident before todays game but now I am a believer that we can win the whole thing. Today was a wrecking.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Looks like Landons performance in the World Cup may make him a very rich man. Good for him.

Sources: World's richest club eyeing Donovan - International Football - Yahoo! Sports

So he can go over and play six times in three years? Hopefully he learned his lesson before and stays home. Beckams contract is winding down. Why don't LA just make Landon there second designated player?

[bababui]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

Paraguay?

Pre-tournament, bookies had England at 3rd favourites behind Spain and Brazil. Personally I think Brazil are (over) due an early exit and I think Argentina have the best squad at the world cup; but not necessarily the best manager. So ok, say England were about 4th. Well ahead, in theory, of France, Italy and Germany - all in a real period of transition. Portugal? Nah. Holland are a dark horse; but Holland are always a dark horse. If they avoid falling out with each other, they might have a decent tournament - and might knock out Brazil.

You're overstating problems at GK. Suspect at the back perhaps, not having a plan B when Ferdinand was injured; but most teams at this WC are somewhat suspect at the back. England have several 'creative' midfielders - there's more than one 'type' for the role. We didn't - and frequently don't - get the best out of them.

Paraguay finished second in SA qualifying, a point behind Brazil. Dont underestimate them.