Chicago White Sox 2007 Thread

[Goodsox]

Originally Posted by Jestor

I hope Fields pans out so we can get rid of Crede... and has Vazquez really been that bad? I get almost no White Sox games here (damn Brewers and Cubs market ) so I haven't been able to follow the team as closely as I'd like.

It depends which Vasquez decides to show up on any given day. You either get the 2 run, 7 strikeouts over 7 innings Javy or the 5+ runs over 5 innings Javy. The second guy shows up a lot more than the first, which is very frustrating.

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by Goodsox

It depends which Vasquez decides to show up on any given day. You either get the 2 run, 7 strikeouts over 7 innings Javy or the 5+ runs over 5 innings Javy. The second guy shows up a lot more than the first, which is very frustrating.

Don't forget the "looks like the best pitcher in the history of the universe for 5 innings and then gives up 800 runs in the 6th" Javy, although we haven't seen him as often this year as we did last year.

Either way, he's way too frustrating and inconsistent to deserve the contract extension he got. I'm still not sure what KW was thinking, other than as an insurance policy against not being able to re-sign Buehrle.

[eriqjaffe]

Wow, the Sox have won 2 out of their last 3 - and both of them by 4+ runs!

[Goodsox]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

Wow, the Sox have won 2 out of their last 3 - and both of them by 4+ runs!

I'm going to the game again today and this time I'm taking my son. They better win for him and start one of those....What are they called?.... Oh yeah, winning streaks. I forgot what those were and apparently they have too. Let's win like 10 in a row or something crazy like that

[eriqjaffe]

If the sox win out the year, then they'll have a pretty good chance at making the playoffs.

Enjoy the game, at least you'll have comfortable weather!

[Goodsox]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

If the sox win out the year, then they'll have a pretty good chance at making the playoffs.

Enjoy the game, at least you'll have comfortable weather!

Well, the weather was nice and again the food and beer were great. However, the product on the field was a complete and utter joke. Guillen said it best after the game last night, "It's a joke". He was referring to the team and I have to agree. Kenny Williams really screwed the pooch this year and needs to start the fire sale now. Dye looks completely lost at the plate and blew many scoring opportunities last night. This team stinks

[Goodsox]

This is from Guillen's press conference last night: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2910088.

I thought his comments were spot on and it made me gain a great deal of respect for him. He pointed the finger where it belongs, at the players.

[edrooney]

Originally Posted by Goodsox

I thought his comments were spot on and it made me gain a great deal of respect for him. He pointed the finger where it belongs, at the players.

I'd reserve one of those fingers for Kenny Williams.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by edrooney

I'd reserve one of those fingers for Kenny Williams.

Yep. Going into this season, it was pretty clear that this team wasn't going to be more than an 80 win team. Turns out they might be worse.

[Go Tribe]

blaming everything on the players is cowardly IMO - he needs to look in the mirror himself. he's had over 50 different lineups this year, made stupid decisions on who to start, who to sub, when to bunt, etc. he doesn't know when to shut up and when to take responsibility.

IMO he caught lightning in a bottle in 2005 and will never see that success again.

I also agree that Kenny Williams has a huge hand in this.

[Luis_Rivera]

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...&postcount=239

Add "Podsednik and his horrible bat in LF" to this list and you have your reasons the White Sox suck this year. Some of it can be blamed on Williams, some of it can't. I wouldn't blame the players, because they are what they are.

[Goodsox]

Originally Posted by edrooney

I'd reserve one of those fingers for Kenny Williams.

True, I reserved my middle finger for him

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...&postcount=239

Add "Podsednik and his horrible bat in LF" to this list and you have your reasons the White Sox suck this year. Some of it can be blamed on Williams, some of it can't. I wouldn't blame the players, because they are what they are.

Let's see...

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

-Erstad in CF
-eXtreme regression by Dye
-Regression by Crede, and Pierzynski
-Slight regression by Konerko
-Thome injury risk
-Buehrle's severe decline in peripherals over the last few years
-Danks replacing Garcia in the rotation

1) Can't argue about Erstad, but he wasn't as horrible as I expected. Not really good, but he certainly provided no worse offense than, say, Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens, Ryan Sweeney, etc. I don't think anybody expected him to be "the answer", though.

2) You called Dye's regression, Heck, I think you may have left out a couple X's in eXtreme.

3) Crede regressed, although that had more to do with his bad back than anything else. Pierzynski is playing at about exactly the same pace he was in 2005.

4) Konerko should also get the eXtreme regression tag, IMO.

5) Thome is always an injury risk, so, yeah.

6) Buehrle had an incredibly bad second half last year. Other than that, he's been just fine, thank you very much. I'm not seeing any "severe decline in peripherals over the last few years", either.

7) If you think Freddy Garcia has been more effective this year than John Danks, then I think your peripherals are in decline.

8) Podsednik, before his most recent groin injury, was actually one of the best things the Sox had going. Sure, it was only 10 games before he went down, but he had posted an .833 OPS in that time - considering he's never going to be a power hitter, that's not too shabby, really. I've said it before, but I have a hard time with criticizing players for providing "atypical" production for their position.

Anyhow, the things you really forgot to mention:

1) The bullpen is TEH SUK
2) Juan Uribe has regressed so far that he's making me long for Jose Valentin. Offensively only, mind you.
3) This team has been hit very hard by injuries, although all of them have been very predictable injuries - Crede's back, Pods's groin, Thome's body.
4) The bullpen is TEH SUK AGAIN.

[eriqjaffe]

Dadgummit!

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

3)Pierzynski is playing at about exactly the same pace he was in 2005.

Yea, a little worse... but I was referencing last season.

4) Konerko should also get the eXtreme regression tag, IMO.

Yea... it's beyond regression with him, though. He's playing well below what anyone would expect.

6) Buehrle had an incredibly bad second half last year. Other than that, he's been just fine, thank you very much. I'm not seeing any "severe decline in peripherals over the last few years", either.

I was referencing how he went from ~6 K/9 and below 2 BB/9 in '04 down to 4.3 K/9 and 2.12 K/9 last season. He's recovered nicely thus far this season, but I was right for being concerned with that 4.3 K/9 from last season.

7) If you think Freddy Garcia has been more effective this year than John Danks, then I think your peripherals are in decline.

Freddy Garcia has had a VERY unlucky year in Philly, that being said I did underestimate what Danks could do this season. Their performances aren't that far off though. Garcia's FIP is 5.41 while Danks' is 5.38. When you account for the likely regression down in Garcia's 17.4% HR/FB while Danks just has a problem with the longball because he's a fly ball pitcher (even accounting for the fact that US Cellular is not kind to fly ballers) then It's not crazy to say that Garcia will likely be more effective than Danks from this point on in the season.

Of course, in the long run, I'd much rather have Danks, but I was talking strictly this year. He does need to harness that long ball though.

8) Podsednik, before his most recent groin injury, was actually one of the best things the Sox had going. Sure, it was only 10 games before he went down, but he had posted an .833 OPS in that time - considering he's never going to be a power hitter, that's not too shabby, really. I've said it before, but I have a hard time with criticizing players for providing "atypical" production for their position.

Yea, but ANYONE can put up an .833 OPS in 10 games. Hell, anyone can look like Willie Mays for 10 games. Podsednik sucks bad.

Anyhow, the things you really forgot to mention:

1) The bullpen is TEH SUK
2) Juan Uribe has regressed so far that he's making me long for Jose Valentin. Offensively only, mind you.

Yea, I didn't really foresee the awfulness of that bullpen, but that came from a lack of research in that area. Other than that, yea... Uribe sucks... but I'm not sure why you're dissing on Valentin. He was pretty good in a White Sox uni!

Thanks for the breakdown/critique... nice job!

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Yea... it's beyond regression with him, though. He's playing well below what anyone would expect.

There are still some Sox fans who remember that Paulie has done this sort of thing before. In 2003, at the All-Star break, he was hitting .197 with 5 home runs and a .567 OPS. The knock on Konerko at the time was that he was a crazy streaky hitter. Apparently, Streaky Paulie is back after being gone for most of the past 3 years.

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Freddy Garcia has had a VERY unlucky year in Philly, that being said I did underestimate what Danks could do this season. Their performances aren't that far off though. Garcia's FIP is 5.41 while Danks' is 5.38. When you account for the likely regression down in Garcia's 17.4% HR/FB while Danks just has a problem with the longball because he's a fly ball pitcher (even accounting for the fact that US Cellular is not kind to fly ballers) then It's not crazy to say that Garcia will likely be more effective than Danks from this point on in the season.

Of course, in the long run, I'd much rather have Danks, but I was talking strictly this year. He does need to harness that long ball though.

Garcia went into a pretty severe decline last year. His velocity was in the toilet, and he literally came out and admitted that he had difficulty getting up for "unimportant" games (the Royals tagged him to the tune of a 5.93 ERA in his two starts against them last year). Danks pitched very well at first, and is definitely coming back down to earth as the league starts to get a handle on him. The other x-factor in the Garcia trade is Gio Gonzalez (Baseball America listed him as the 72nd best overall prospect back in February, so the Danks/Gonzalez pair may be a cornerstone for the Sox in the very near future. As to Freddy's HR numbers, those have been climbing steadily since the Sox acquired him in 2004, so I'm not surprised to see he's given up 12 in 58 innings this season.

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Yea, I didn't really foresee the awfulness of that bullpen, but that came from a lack of research in that area.

Well, I think the main problem is that all of them (at least the guys who started the year) are all the same type of pitcher - fastball fastball fastball. MacDougal is probalby the most disappointing, especially since he was lights-out for the Sox last year. Aardsma was somewhat of an enigma - he pitched well for the Cubs last year. This year, we're seeing the Matt Thornton that the Mariners got sick of (and traded to the Sox for Joe Borchard). Nobody was surprised by how poorly Sisco did. Massett isn't ready for the majors (he has walked 21 batters in 32.3 innings so far). Really, Jenks and Boone Logan have been the only reliable guys out of the pen this year. Oof.

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I'm not sure why you're dissing on Valentin. He was pretty good in a White Sox uni!

As shortstops go, he sure had a great moustache!

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
2000 30 CHW AL 144  568  107  155  37  6  25   92  19  2  59 106  .273  .343  .491  105  279  13   4   1   4  11
2001 31 CHW AL 124  438   74  113  22  2  28   68   9  6  50 114  .258  .336  .509  117  223   8   3   2   3   7
2002 32 CHW AL 135  474   70  118  26  4  25   75   3  3  43  99  .249  .311  .479  104  227   3   5   2   2   9
2003 33 CHW AL 144  503   79  119  26  2  28   74   8  3  54 114  .237  .313  .463  103  233   7   2   4   3   6
2004 34 CHW AL 125  450   73   97  20  3  30   70   8  6  43 139  .216  .287  .473   88  213   6   2   4   3   5

Basically, he had one good year (2000) one pretty good year (2001), and every year after that was a more and more pronounced decline. And he was an absolute butcher in the field, which is the one thing that Uribe does well with some consistency. But that .216 average would fit right in with the '07 Sox, though!

[phenom]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Yea, but ANYONE can put up an .833 OPS in 10 games. Hell, anyone can look like Willie Mays for 10 games. Podsednik sucks bad.

Not just ANYONE!

Signed,

Chris Shelton

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by phenom

Not just ANYONE!

Signed,

Chris Shelton

Shelton's not the best example. Hit great for 2/3's of a season in 2005 and hit like Lou Gehrig on steroids for over a month to start the 2006 season before vaporizing.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

Basically, he had one good year (2000) one pretty good year (2001), and every year after that was a more and more pronounced decline. And he was an absolute butcher in the field, which is the one thing that Uribe does well with some consistency. But that .216 average would fit right in with the '07 Sox, though!

'02 and '03 weren't all that bad either. He was definitely an above average hitting SS. In the field is a different story, of course, but those SLG numbers make up for a below average OBP.

I'll agree to disagree on Garcia, but good points!

[darkhorse]

BB Pro's Bryan Smith recounts the ways one can lose 19 of 24 games......

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=416

"Ten losses, all games where the bullpen entered with the game tied or in favor of the White Sox. Chicago’s offense has been brutal this season, they aren’t playing good defense and Ozzie has the tendency to leave his starters in just one inning too long. But the Sox could be contenders right now if not for Matt Thornton, Mike MacDougal, Nick Masset, Ryan Bukvich and Bobby Jenks. Instead, South Side fans might be looking at yet another July fire sale in a few weeks."