White Sox/Angels ALCS Thread - Page 21

BleacherBum · 10-16-2005, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Dunno, BB, a complete game equals an astounding starting performance?

Right, you dunno. Check my statement. The ongoing sequence of complete game victories is what is astounding, especially in an LCS.

darkhorse · 10-16-2005, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleacherBum

Right, you dunno. Check my statement. The ongoing sequence of complete game victories is what is astounding, especially in an LCS.

It seems that neither do you as there is no mention of complete games in that post.

BleacherBum · 10-16-2005, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

It seems that neither do you as there is no mention of complete games in that post.

None needed. That was an obvious component of the performances (for those following the games), emphasized by the "in this era" clause.

Your message was aimed at discounting the feats of the Sox starters, while mine was to celebrate it. Our views are clearly opposed.

darkhorse · 10-16-2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleacherBum

None needed. That was an obvious component of the performances

Oh, there's no doubt that it's part of their amazing performance. However, it was sadly absent from your statement.

darkhorse · 10-16-2005, 02:03 AM

dola,

Stating that the White Sox starting pitching is inferior to that of Houston is merely fact. No insult intended.

JDOldSchool · 10-16-2005, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

Umps make bad calls 162 games a year for many different teams - they don't win or lose the games

Sure they do. To say otherwise is absolutely asinine. And to say they "even out" (which you didn't exactly say) is equally asinine unless you have some sort of proof.

JDOldSchool · 10-16-2005, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

dola,

Stating that the White Sox starting pitching is inferior to that of Houston is merely fact. No insult intended.

For the regular season, yes. But the White Sox starting pitching in the playoffs has just been...darn near perfect. Of course, 4 of those games are against a craptacular offense whose one scary hitter has decided to take the series off (Is Vlad hurt? He looks like it).

Gastric ReFlux · 10-16-2005, 12:11 PM

Vlad is really struggling, isn't he? Ground ball after ground ball to the left side.

How many runs have the White Sox scored? They may have more runs than the Angels have even had baserunners.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 10-16-2005, 12:20 PM

Yeah, the Angels' hitting (which has been pretty damn poor all season) has been absolutely beyond wretched in this series. Is there some kind of rule that they have to swing at every single first pitch?

Jason · 10-16-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Yeah, the Angels' hitting (which has been pretty damn poor all season) has been absolutely beyond wretched in this series. Is there some kind of rule that they have to swing at every single first pitch?

Yeah, I hear my Little League coach in my head every time they swing at the first thing they see.

JDOldSchool · 10-16-2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Yeah, the Angels' hitting (which has been pretty damn poor all season) has been absolutely beyond wretched in this series. Is there some kind of rule that they have to swing at every single first pitch?

The media keeps telling me that aggressiveness at the plate is not only a good thing, but the reason these two teams are playing in the ALCS.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 10-16-2005, 01:10 PM

I know. It's weird, because this is one time where their dusty old "good pitching (and defense) beats good hitting" line would actually be somewhat applicable, and instead we get this crap about smallball and aggressiveness.

JDOldSchool · 10-16-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

I know. It's weird, because this is one time where their dusty old "good pitching (and defense) beats good hitting" line would actually be somewhat applicable, and instead we get this crap about smallball and aggressiveness.

The Angels should bunt more. They'd surely score more runs if they never ever had a ball leave the infield.

CD1083 · 10-16-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Sure they do. To say otherwise is absolutely asinine. And to say they "even out" (which you didn't exactly say) is equally asinine unless you have some sort of proof.

even out? I didn't exactly say it because I didn't exactly hint at it

Game 2 - mistake by umps - who wins that game? had the error not happened, who is to say the Angels win it?

Game 3 - won without much debate, of course some could go and look at pitch calls and make an argument

Game 4 - did the umps cost the Angels 6 runs or more? - I'd like to see somone argue they did

mistakes are made throughout the season - the only reason we are magnifying every little thing is due to game 2 combined with its the playoffs - get over it - every fan has their day in the sun and every fan has their day they bitch because a call didn't go in their favor - it's part of the game

JDOldSchool · 10-16-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

even out? I didn't exactly say it because I didn't exactly hint at it

No? Then what's this?

Quote:

Umps make bad calls 162 games a year for many different teams

Like I said, it wasn't a direct statement. Pointing out how many different teams get bad calls implies it goes both ways on some kind of regular basis. I don't think it's a stretch to infer some kind of "evening out" from your statement.

As for the rest of your post, I never said any of these particular calls in this series cost a game. You said, "they don't win or lose the games." I disagree. I think calls decide games plenty of times.

And I think the bad calls in Game 4 were much more likely to have cost the game than in Game 2. Not only did the White Sox get a free run because of a bad call (Podsednik scored when he was picked off first), but the Angels were cost at least a run (Either Finley gets the call and it's bases loaded, 1 out, Garcia on the ropes or Finley doesn't hit the glove, runs out the play, and beats the throw so a run scores and the inning continues. It can be argued the Angels would have scored more than 1). Not only that, but the entire game would be different if the Angels tie it in that inning. Esteban Yan sure doesn't come in for mop-up duty.

But there is no way of knowing if bad calls cost the game. That doesn't mean bad calls don't cost the game.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 10-16-2005, 03:12 PM

The calls have been infuriating so far, but what can you do? The call in Game 2 certainly decided the game, but of course it really only turned it from a 50-50 shot to a definite White Sox win.

The calls in Game 4 were pretty bad, especially the catcher's interference, and while a couple extra runs early on could have changed the complexion of the game, I can't even really argue that the Angels would have won with better umpiring. They got outplayed in pretty much every way last night.

Karros270 · 10-16-2005, 03:24 PM

So sweet Lou is enjoying his commentating so much that he's considering doing this full time next year. Apparently Fox thinks it's a great idea. God help us all.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8968844

CD1083 · 10-16-2005, 03:27 PM

If I didn't say it - than I didn't mean it, so don't infer, assume or anything else from my statements - I said that umpires make bad calls 162 games a year for many different teams, are you disagreeing with that? It's not evening out anything, a bad call is a bad call but they happend, this is not the first time an umpire has made a bad call - and it certainly won't be the last time.

The Angels are batting under .200 against the sox this series - that isn't the umpires doing. Now I'm not sure if you are arguing the Angles would be winning the series if not for the umpires.

This is baseball and we take the good with the bad, if you want instant replay, watch football - The umps are just as much part of the game as the players, they make those calls that do decide the game, the long throws from third, where the only way to tell is to watch it over and over again from 5 different angles in slow motion. The dropped 3rd strikes that without seeing it 15 times on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and any other channel that exists, nobody would be for sure what it was. That is part of the game and the umpire has 1 chance to make that call.

As a White Sox fan, it is much easier for me to defend the umpires than if I was on the other side but I have been on the other side and I had to learn to live with it as well and inside I knew that the bad call did not lose it for my team

Jonzard · 10-16-2005, 03:27 PM

....great

rem · 10-16-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karros270

So sweet Lou is enjoying his commentating so much that he's considering doing this full time next year. Apparently Fox thinks it's a great idea. God help us all.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8968844

He was pretty brutal in the first game, but I thought he was fine in the second one. He is a bit of a traditionalist, however.

10-16-2005, 02:03 AM	#405
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	dola, Stating that the White Sox starting pitching is inferior to that of Houston is merely fact. No insult intended. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

10-16-2005, 12:20 PM	#409
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	Yeah, the Angels' hitting (which has been pretty damn poor all season) has been absolutely beyond wretched in this series. Is there some kind of rule that they have to swing at every single first pitch? __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

10-16-2005, 01:10 PM	#412
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	I know. It's weird, because this is one time where their dusty old "good pitching (and defense) beats good hitting" line would actually be somewhat applicable, and instead we get this crap about smallball and aggressiveness. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

10-16-2005, 03:12 PM	#416
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	The calls have been infuriating so far, but what can you do? The call in Game 2 certainly decided the game, but of course it really only turned it from a 50-50 shot to a definite White Sox win. The calls in Game 4 were pretty bad, especially the catcher's interference, and while a couple extra runs early on could have changed the complexion of the game, I can't even really argue that the Angels would have won with better umpiring. They got outplayed in pretty much every way last night. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

10-16-2005, 03:24 PM	#417
Karros270 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,392	So sweet Lou is enjoying his commentating so much that he's considering doing this full time next year. Apparently Fox thinks it's a great idea. God help us all. http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8968844 __________________ now everybody's praying...don't prey on me

10-16-2005, 12:11 PM	#408
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Vlad is really struggling, isn't he? Ground ball after ground ball to the left side. How many runs have the White Sox scored? They may have more runs than the Angels have even had baserunners.

10-16-2005, 03:27 PM	#418
CD1083 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,590	If I didn't say it - than I didn't mean it, so don't infer, assume or anything else from my statements - I said that umpires make bad calls 162 games a year for many different teams, are you disagreeing with that? It's not evening out anything, a bad call is a bad call but they happend, this is not the first time an umpire has made a bad call - and it certainly won't be the last time. The Angels are batting under .200 against the sox this series - that isn't the umpires doing. Now I'm not sure if you are arguing the Angles would be winning the series if not for the umpires. This is baseball and we take the good with the bad, if you want instant replay, watch football - The umps are just as much part of the game as the players, they make those calls that do decide the game, the long throws from third, where the only way to tell is to watch it over and over again from 5 different angles in slow motion. The dropped 3rd strikes that without seeing it 15 times on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX and any other channel that exists, nobody would be for sure what it was. That is part of the game and the umpire has 1 chance to make that call. As a White Sox fan, it is much easier for me to defend the umpires than if I was on the other side but I have been on the other side and I had to learn to live with it as well and inside I knew that the bad call did not lose it for my team

10-16-2005, 03:27 PM	#419
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	....great __________________ For a scientist must indeed be freely imaginative and yet skeptical, creative and yet a critic. There is a sense in which he must be free, but another in which his thought must be very precisely regimented; there is poetry in science, but also a lot of bookkeeping. — Sir Peter B. Medawar FTB