Interesting Test (concerning Barry Bonds and the Giants)

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Doesn't invalidate the point that we'd all probably be wrong.

Yes, it does. You weren't there, and I was, and you're wrong.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Collective blindness doen't give the Emperor clothes.

Which is why your argument, as usual, has no clothes. You weren't there. We were. We saw. We *know*.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by GForce

Awww, shucks. Thanks.

GH

Well, there you have it: Gforce just admitted to being Bud Selig.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Which is why your argument, as usual, has no clothes. You weren't there. We were. We saw. We *know*.

SOrry MD, but even though I'm on your side in this one, I can't buy this.

The prime example of this is Hal Chase. Everyone who ever saw him play almost universally hailed him as the greatest first baseman ever. Cobb said it. Ruth said it. Everyone said it. But he wasn't. First hand accounts are nice, but are hardly the measure of greatness.

[Malleus Dei]

Gil Thorp: "I'll just have to trust my own eyes. And having seen both of them, Koufax, when at his best, was better. And it's not even close."

Me: "Koufax was like nothing that you ever saw. Everyone else? They're pitchers. Koufax - when he was on, he was something special. You had to see it." "Koufax, when at his best, was better...damned near transcendent. And Gil's right: it wasn't even close."

Rogmax11: "But I echo MD on this: Sandy was indeed something special, and exuded a style of class and graceful demeanor that seems to have nearly vanished these days." "I cannot believe anyone who has seen them both pitch live would ever go so far as to suggest that Koufax was in any way inferior to Pedro." "Ive said repeatedly--probably boringly--that SK was the best I ever saw, and I saw him a lot. I know it sounds a lot like old-timers grousing about the good old days, but transcendant is an apt description of Koufax. God only knows what his career might have been given todays medical, training, and usage conditions. Ive seen others that were domineering for a particular game or two, or ten. Ive never--never--seen anything like Koufax."

We all saw him pitch. We *know*. You didn't see him pitch, so you don't. But if you had seen it, you'd *know* too.

The map is not the territory.

[Crapshoot]

Sigh- its like arguing with the Emperor. I recall supporting you a while back (strange in itself) when you that Cox was the best manager (as per Bill James), when Cooley and a bunch of others insisted he failed in the clutch or what not - and you pointed out the value of objectivity, and how the numbers provided that. Its a shame you can't take your own advice- instead you cling to your old myths, whose time is long gone. Tis a shame.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

The prime example of this is Hal Chase. Everyone who ever saw him play almost universally hailed him as the greatest first baseman ever. Cobb said it. Ruth said it. Everyone said it. But he wasn't.

Interesting case you bring up there. Chase threw games every now and then - and got banned for it eventually - but when he was on and playing at his best everyone who saw him play agreed that he WAS the best first basemen ever. Baseball people in Gehrig's era who had seen Chase play were still stating that Chase was the best first baseman ever.

Chase's stats, which include times when he wasn't trying, or was trying the other way, simply don't show that...and if you think about it, you can see why they don't. The eyewitnesses, on the other hand, saw what he was capable of. The people calling Chase the best ever included Walter Johnson, Baseball News, Babe Ruth (who saw a lot of really outstanding first basemen in his career) and The Sporting News, which wrote in 1913: "That he can play first base as it never was and perhaps never will be played is a well known truth. That he will is a different matter." Bill James on Chase: "No other player in baseball history was so richly praised for his defensive skill - no one. His brilliance with the glove is easier to document than Ty Cobb's temper, Hack Wilson's drinking or Walter Johnson's fastball; it is all over the literature of the sport."

Likewise, anyone who ever saw Koufax pitch when he was on knows just what Gil and Rogmax and I are writing about.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Sigh- its like arguing with the Emperor. I recall supporting you a while back (strange in itself) when you that Cox was the best manager (as per Bill James), when Cooley and a bunch of others insisted he failed in the clutch or what not - and you pointed out the value of objectivity, and how the numbers provided that. Its a shame you can't take your own advice- instead you cling to your old myths, whose time is long gone. Tis a shame.

It's not a myth. When Koufax was on there was nothing like him, just like Chase really *was* the best first baseman ever. Objective statistics can establish that Pedro X or Randy Y or Roger Z was a better pitcher over X period of time, and I won't argue with those objective stats - but I will say, over and over again, and Gil and Rogmax are telling you the same thing, that when Koufax was on there has never been anyone better...pretty much just like Ruth et al said about Chase.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Aadik

I recall supporting you a while back (strange in itself) when you that Cox was the best manager

That just shows that you actually can be right now and then.

1991-2004: a record thirteen consecutive division championships. Choke on that, Yankee fans.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Likewise, anyone who ever saw Koufax pitch when he was on knows just what Gil and Rogmax and I are writing about.

Look, you won't find a bigger fan of Koufax than me. I'm a die hard Dodger fan, die hard, and I'm Jewish. So believe me, there is 0 bias against Koufax here.

But you have to give me something to prove he was better. If you can't give it statistically, give it to me in anectodal description. You say when you saw him (and I envy you for this) he was unlike anyone else, ever. Honestly, I believe it. But what did you see? I'm not trying to challenge you here, I'd sincerely like to know.

I believe Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, and Walter Johnson to be the best pitchers of their generation, and the best peak-pitchers ever. So please tell me why Koufax is better than Pedro, keeping this in mind.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

That just shows that you actually can be right now and then.

1991-2004: a record thirteen consecutive division championships. Choke on that, Yankee fans.

Bobby Cox and Joe McCarthy are the two best managers ever I think. The second tier has the Stengels, McKechnies, Torres and whatnot.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

So please tell me why Koufax is better than Pedro, keeping this in mind.

I'll leave that to Gil Thorp and Rogmax11, because I clearly don't know how to put it into words that people can comprehend (witness the above). All I can really say is that he was almost transcendent when he was on. The nearest state to it I ever saw anyone reach was Hershiser in the 1988 World Series. Do you see Hershiser then? You KNEW what was going to happen. You could TELL.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I'll leave that to Gil Thorp and Rogmax11, because I clearly don't know how to put it into words that people can comprehend (witness the above). All I can really say is that he was almost transcendent when he was on. The nearest state to it I ever saw anyone reach was Hershiser in the 1988 World Series. Do you see Hershiser then? You KNEW what was going to happen. You could TELL.

I was 3 years old in 1988, so while I may have seen it, I don't remember.

I will say, though, that Pedro did reach this level. In 1999, was there anyone ever more unhittable? The all-star game, where you knwe he was going to strike out the side. The relief appearance against the Indians in Game 5, the moment the bullpen door swung open, you KNEW it was over.

While I can't claim to have seen Koufax in that state, I can tell you now I have seen Pedro reach those heights. I have seen it. So have many others.

Also, I do understand how you feel about Sandy. Two of my all-time favorite baseball foibles are about him.

1) The great statement about Koufax: "It's as if he came down from a higher league." That speaks volumes. It wasn't just that he was good, it that he was too good to exist within the baseball world as it was currently known.

2) I've heard that many times batters used to walk away from Koufax, using the word "unfair." This is a word I use now, and I think it's incredibly profound. I told the first girl I ever loved that I found her, as a human being, "unfair." (Did this about 2 months ago...didn't turn out all to well lol) I interpret it to mean that to all us mortals, the very existence of this person in the same world as us cannot possibly be right. There is something fundamentally unfair about their very existence, they are too good.

So yes, I know what you mean, I think. And no, Pedro is not "unfair." So maybe you're right...

[You'll Thank Me Later]

What Mal is trying to say but is to old to know the phrase is that nobody else could ever get in the zone like Koufax could.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Yes, it does. You weren't there, and I was, and you're wrong.

If you're trying to tell me that you've seen every pitcher in MLB history hurl every game of his career, then I'm impressed.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by You'll Thank Me Later

What Mal is trying to say but is to old to know the phrase is that nobody else could ever get in the zone like Koufax could.

And to be kind, he's most likely wrong.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Objective statistics can establish that Pedro X or Randy Y or Roger Z was a better pitcher over X period of time, and I won't argue with those objective stats - but I will say, over and over again, and Gil and Rogmax are telling you the same thing, that when Koufax was on there has never been anyone better...pretty much just like Ruth et al said about Chase.

To me, this raises an interesting question: if indeed there never was anyone better, then why don't their statistics reflect that?

It seems curious to me to say on the one hand that the objective stats are sufficient proof of a player's performance that you won't argue them, then a moment later say that evidence doesn't count and your subjective observations trump objective evidence.

That seems like a contradiction to me.

Keep in mind I have no opinion on this debate one way or the other; I just saw a few interesting elements in your statements that I wanted to comment upon.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

To me, this raises an interesting question: if indeed there never was anyone better, then why don't their statistics reflect that?

It seems curious to me to say on the one hand that the objective stats are sufficient proof of a player's performance that you won't argue them, then a moment later say that evidence doesn't count and your subjective observations trump objective evidence.

That seems like a contradiction to me.

Keep in mind I have no opinion on this debate one way or the other; I just saw a few interesting elements in your statements that I wanted to comment upon.

Bingo - if this arguement was valid, than Koufax should have had at least a season that was more dominating- if not a career. He hasn't - so unless you want to keep shrinking the sample size (this 3 week stretch in '69!), the arguement doesnt hold water. Else, I'm going to argue I saw Bobby Jones pitch the game of his life against the Giants- and it was the greatest performance ever, and because I saw it- it is.

[darkhorse]

As for the pitcher that was most dominant when in the zone, this guy was pretty decent on a couple of occasions.

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/ima.../92/158492.jpg

[Malleus Dei]

Okay, fine - everyone here who ever saw Koufax pitch ALL HAD THE EXACT SAME OPTICAL ILLUSION. No problem.

And Hal Chase was no good at first base - damn, just look at his stats.