Why does David Eckstein still have a job?

[dsvitak]

I am sorry if I got a little cranky defending Eckstein.

Having been a Cardinal fan since 1980, and currently a season ticket holder (well, me and my wife's teacher friends), I am like many, many other Cards fans.

We like short, scrappy middle infielders. A lot.

Tommy Herr. "The Secret Weapon," Jose Oquendo, Joe McEwing, Bo Hart, and now Davey Eckstein.

I am convinced that the Cards fans are the best fans on the planet. Then take a player with a good attitude, and he becomes Pete ****ing Rose.

I can't name a single player who played worse after becoming a Cardinal in the last 20 years or so. Well...Bob Horner, with true Busch Stadium warning track power.....another story.

When Larry Walker came over from Colorado last year, he got his standing "O" on his first at bat, and he promptly struck out. And got ANOTHER standing ovation.

The only player I have ever seen run out of town on a rail was J.D. Drew, a whining, complaining, lazy, non-hustling SOC.

You watch....Eckstein will take to St. Louis like a duck takes to junebugs. He will overachieve this year, and be part of something pretty special.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

When you have Rolen at third.

No 3b has enough range to make up for a poor SS

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

When you have Rolen at third.

Which then begs the question of 'why not try an untested young bat'?

If Rolen can cover for defensive inadequacies, why not try someone with some pop that can't field?

-E

[<o>]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

worst.alias.ever

I agree

[Jason Moyer]

I know Rolen is good, but I didn't realize he was covering second on the double play or spearing grounders up the middle. He really must be something else.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by <o>

I agree

And everyone else with no sense of humour I am sure agrees as well.

[<o>]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

And everyone else with no sense of humour I am sure agree as well.

Oh, I have a sense of humor, it's just not as bad as yours.

[bulldog55]

Originally Posted by <o>

I agree

Don't be jealous, people appreciate you too.

Wow, now I'm getting in on the act and I don't even know who the hell you are or are reputed to be.

[Davey Eckstein]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

No 3b has enough range to make up for a poor SS

It isn't critical to have a great defensive shortstop. It's the hardest fielding position, blah blah. Great. But consider this:

Two average defensive players at short and third (A+A, A equals one).

One great third and one poor short (B+C, B is two, C is zero).

They both end up at two. Now, I know that isn't incredibly accurate, even if at all. But it isn't as if Eck is the worst fielder in the league. He's worth more than zero. And how many errors does he make? Few. Plus, defense is only 5% of the game .

[Davey Eckstein]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I know Rolen is good, but I didn't realize he was covering second on the double play or spearing grounders up the middle. He really must be something else.

And yes, there's that. But I don't think Eck will ever fail to reach second on a double play. Though he won't be stabbing those balls up the middle. But defense isn't the entire game.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

It isn't critical to have a great defensive shortstop. It's the hardest fielding position, blah blah. Great. But consider this:

Two average defensive players at short and third (A+A, A equals one).

One great third and one poor short (B+C, B is two, C is zero).

They both end up at two. Now, I know that isn't incredibly accurate, even if at all. But it isn't as if Eck is the worst fielder in the league. He's worth more than zero. And how many errors does he make? Few. Plus, defense is only 5% of the game .

This logic is so completly warped.

First of all you can't compare defense at third and short.
Defense at short is lightyears ahead in value compared to defense at third.
Shortstops not only have alot more plays to make and cover more ground but also are a component in 95% of a teams double plays which is the most important defensive play in baseball.

Whether or not Eckstein is a good SS or not. I don't know. I was just pointing out that dvitiask said defense at short 'is not critical' when it is most certaintly the most defensive crtical posistion in baseball.

[Davey Eckstein]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

This logic is so completly warped.

First of all you can't compare defense at third and short.
Defense at short is lightyears ahead in value compared to defense at third.
Shortstops not only have alot more plays to make and cover more ground but also are a component in 95% of a teams double plays which is the most important defensive play in baseball.

Whether or not Eckstein is a good SS or not. I don't know. I was just pointing out that dvitiask said defense at short 'is not critical' when it is most certaintly the most defensive crtical posistion in baseball.

Yes, I realize this, I'd started typing it and figured that out, but didn't wanna go back . Really though, it's just my opinion that defense isn't as important as some say.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

Yes, I realize this, I'd started typing it and figured that out, but didn't wanna go back . Really though, it's just my opinion that defense isn't as important as some say.

Who is some?
And what value do they attach to it?

Sabermetrics has afixed a value to defense that is generaly agreed upon. For some reason I want to say 15% of a players value? Don't know if that is correct or not.
For middle infielders, catchers and CF I would think it would be a little higher.

[El Cid]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

He is 8 million dollars a year cheaper than Renteria. There ain't 8 million dollars LESS value between the two.

The 8 million dollars allowed them to acquire Mulder from the A's.

I don't know about you, but I would rather have Eckstein/Mulder than Renteria/whothe****knows.

The heck with his talent, that right there is a closing argument

For that reason alone, Eckstein is the best SS in the NL this year unless Mulder blows his arm out

[STLFAN2003]

actually Rolen did turn a double play at second base and made some nice diving plays where the shortstop gets the ball.


I agree with the other cards fan. We have our history of liking players who hustle, and do more with less talent such as Bo Hart and Joe McEwing.

Eckstein is a great fit in St. Louis

Originally Posted by dsvitak

When Larry Walker came over from Colorado last year, he got his standing "O" on his first at bat, and he promptly struck out. And got ANOTHER standing ovation.

The only player I have ever seen run out of town on a rail was J.D. Drew, a whining, complaining, lazy, non-hustling SOC.

and guess the fans reactions for "hating this player" when he came up at bat in his first game as a non-Cardinal. No cheers, but no boos. For being one of the most hated players from the standpoint of Cardinals fans, that just shows the respect that Cardinals fans have for baseball players

[JDOldSchool]

Orlando Cabrera has had one good offensive year in 6 seasons of 100+ games. ONE.

Eckstein has a better average, gets on base more, and I don't care what anybody here says he's a better defensive player than Cabrera. His UZR for 01-03 is higher, by a lot. Eckstein is at 19 UZR runs and Cabrera at just 9. Only 1 run difference in arm (Eckstein at -1, Cabrera at 0). Even if you don't think UZR is perfect, and I'm sure it's not, that's a HUGE difference.

Quite frankly, I don't see how Cabrera is better at all. When you factor in the fact that Eckstein costs half as much, it's a no-brainer.

Despite his game-winner last night, Cabrera is one of the many dumb moves Anaheim made this off-season that will keep them out of the playoffs.

[sebastian0622]

Eckstein isn't bad. If nothing else, a few million a year for a guy who doesn't bobble the ball at SS is an ok deal. Add in decent leadoff or #2 credentials, and I don't see anything wrong with the guy. He enables a team to spend money elsewhere without worrying about SS too much either offensively or defensively.

[Jason Moyer]

Hm. Eckstein was 16th among 21 qualifying shortstops in RC/27 last year. So he isn't doing anything with the bat, and people seem to think he's horrible defensively (I have no idea, just going by the concensus here). What exactly does he do well? He's the stereotypical "hits .275 with no power or walks, plays ok defense, and looks good in a uniform" guy. I hate those guys.

Edit: I'm not saying his value is much different from Renteria or Cabrera. All 3 are fairly crap.

[Davey Eckstein]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Hm. Eckstein was 16th among 21 qualifying shortstops in RC/27 last year. So he isn't doing anything with the bat, and people seem to think he's horrible defensively (I have no idea, just going by the concensus here). What exactly does he do well? He's the stereotypical "hits .275 with no power or walks, plays ok defense, and looks good in a uniform" guy. I hate those guys.

Ahem.

Originally Posted by dsvitak

With the caveat that there are MANY shortstops I would rather have....

OBP will be around .350 for the year. Not awful, and in this lineup, a shoo-in to score 110 runs.

The very finest fielding percentage in the major leagues at his position.

SIX errors for the year, in over 500 total chances. Sure, his range factor wasn't high....but he ain't gonna throw the ball into the seats...and Rolen's exceptional range will partially mask this lack of range.

He appears to have a GREAT attitude, and is a welcome addition to the Cardinals clubhouse.

He is 8 million dollars a year cheaper than Renteria. There ain't 8 million dollars LESS value between the two.

The 8 million dollars allowed them to acquire Mulder from the A's.

I don't know about you, but I would rather have Eckstein/Mulder than Renteria/whothe****knows.

Sling your arrows, throw your stones...he is a decent player for the money.

Did I mention that he is the very toughest player in the major leagues to strike out?

Did I mention that he has one of the very finest pitches seen/at bat ratio in the majors? He personally saw 25 pitches over the course of a game the other day. This is very underrated. If you get into the Cubs bullpen, you're gonna win.

A hell of a lot, if you think Orlando Cabrera is a better player than Eckstein.

Look up and compare the two lifetime batting average. I'll wait. Hmmm...I'll save you the trouble.

Eckstein .278
Cabrera .268

Hmmm....it must be the OBP.
Eckstein .347
Cabrera .316

.316? This sucks. Hard. 39 walks in 670+ plate appearances.

They are different type of players. If you need a seventh place hitter, with a small amount of pop in his bat, and you need a decent fielder, then MAYBE Cabrera is a better deal.

If you need a lead-off hitter, and defense isn't critical, then a better call is Eckstein.

You want to see Cabrera as a lead-off hitter? Look at Louie Aparacio's stats.

Oh...Cabrera is a year older.

Yeah.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

Yes, I realize this, I'd started typing it and figured that out, but didn't wanna go back . Really though, it's just my opinion that defense isn't as important as some say.

The small handful of teams that have designed and implemented actual working systems to pinpoint defensive value would probably disagree. The ability to get to more batted balls and turn them into outs leads to increased run prevention and increased wins. There's some serious value to defense.