Interesting Test (concerning Barry Bonds and the Giants)

[Malleus Dei]

"Steroids subvert what baseball is selling: fair competition." - George Will

[UngratefulDead]

*coughgreeniescough*

[<o>]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I wish those who have no historical perspective could understand that baseball has never been this bad since 1919.

I have a nice "fixed that for ya" But I'll refrain from using it.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I wish those who have no historical perspective could understand that baseball has never been this bad since 1919.

Yes, we know baseball in the 40's and 50's as an all white (or white dominanted, since you had to essentialy excel as an African-American to get in) sport was great MD- your take on that is clear.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by IatricSB

What is your criteria for "better"? Attendance? Entertainment? Other?

Quality - at no time have we had a better pure talent pool for baseball. We don't discriminate by race, which is why I find people defending pre 1947 baseball (and hell, pre 1960 or so to be more accurate) as ridiculous. We offer enough incentives for the best players to stay as the best players, and work their hardest on baseball. Its truly a global game (although much can be improved here) now - in a way it never was in the past. We've seen the great players of this or any other generation in terms of peak value - today, we have the top hitter of all time, 3 of the top 5-6 pitchers of all time active that's pretty damn impressive for any era. We're seeing the greatest relief pitcher ever (although this is a usage pattern admittedly), and we're seeing a parity unlike any real parity in the past - but not hackneyed enforced parity like the NFL. The ability of the sport to attract talent has never been better- and that's good for the game.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I wish those who have no historical perspective could understand that baseball has never been this bad since 1919.

But if they understood it, wouldn't they by definition cease to be "those with no historical perspective?"

[IatricSB]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Quality - at no time have we had a better pure talent pool for baseball. We don't discriminate by race, which is why I find people defending pre 1947 baseball (and hell, pre 1960 or so to be more accurate) as ridiculous. We offer enough incentives for the best players to stay as the best players, and work their hardest on baseball. Its truly a global game (although much can be improved here) now - in a way it never was in the past. We've seen the great players of this or any other generation in terms of peak value - today, we have the top hitter of all time, 3 of the top 5-6 pitchers of all time active that's pretty damn impressive for any era. We're seeing the greatest relief pitcher ever (although this is a usage pattern admittedly), and we're seeing a parity unlike any real parity in the past - but not hackneyed enforced parity like the NFL. The ability of the sport to attract talent has never been better- and that's good for the game.

To each his own I guess

[<o>]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Yes, we know baseball in the 40's and 50's as an all white (or white dominanted, since you had to essentialy excel as an African-American to get in) sport was great MD- your take on that is clear.

Doh, looks like someone found out what I was getting at. I just didn't want to come off as a grudge bearer again. Thanks Aadik.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by IatricSB

To each his own I guess

fair enough Stacy- I just can't see a reasonable defense for pre integration baseball.

[DaveHorn]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Quality - at no time have we had a better pure talent pool for baseball. We don't discriminate by race, which is why I find people defending pre 1947 baseball (and hell, pre 1960 or so to be more accurate) as ridiculous. We offer enough incentives for the best players to stay as the best players, and work their hardest on baseball. Its truly a global game (although much can be improved here) now - in a way it never was in the past. We've seen the great players of this or any other generation in terms of peak value - today, we have the top hitter of all time, 3 of the top 5-6 pitchers of all time active that's pretty damn impressive for any era. We're seeing the greatest relief pitcher ever (although this is a usage pattern admittedly), and we're seeing a parity unlike any real parity in the past - but not hackneyed enforced parity like the NFL. The ability of the sport to attract talent has never been better- and that's good for the game.

Well said! Kudos!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Yes, we know baseball in the 40's and 50's as an all white (or white dominanted, since you had to essentialy excel as an African-American to get in) sport was great MD- your take on that is clear.

As usual, you know nothing - my favorite period in baseball is the sixties and seventies.

The issue of steroids in baseball has NOTHING to do with race, especially given that McGwire is one of the chief suspects. Your attempt to personalize this - we're discussing steroids, not your old grudge against me - and to use a bogus implication of racism to get off the issue is pathetic.

[TheRockCT]

I agree with both Aadik and MD on this. I love baseball, it's been a passion of mine all my life. I just don't view it through rose-colored glasses regardless of its era. Aadik's right, the talent is probably more expansive in today's game, and the rampant racism of the game's first 50-75 years was an immense problem that leaves a stain. But I also agree that steroids is a huge issue, too, and will probably be looked at as the steroid era without a doubt, and that leaves a stain.

But yet, it's one of those "military history" conflictions to me. Wars such as WWII were terrible for countless reasons. But I still find myself drawn to the study and personal incorporation of the topics and issues of military history. Baseball, in the same light, is not something that IMO has ever been pure, for one reason or another. I just can't view a particular era as the "pinnacle" of baseball greatness and immortality.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Aadik

fair enough Stacy- I just can't see a reasonable defense for pre integration baseball.

D00d, how about pre-segregation baseball? 1870s and 1880s are where it's at.....

[Malleus Dei]

"The only way to recover what was lost is to ban the players who participated, and wipe their records from the books. Give the records back to Maris, Ruth, Aaron, and the rest. And let a new generation of players learn that there is honor in baseball." - Ben Shapiro

[Joshv02]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

As usual, you know nothing

. . .

Your attempt to personalize this

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

"The only way to recover what was lost is to ban the players who participated, and wipe their records from the books. Give the records back to Maris, Ruth, Aaron, and the rest. And let a new generation of players learn that there is honor in baseball." - Ben Shapiro

Yes Mal, quoting fools is clearly the way to convince me. Ben Shapiro will clearly show me the light. As for your 60's comment - perhaps I was guided by your previous comments arguing that baseball after 1968 was ruined forever - because of FA among other things if I recall correctly (and a quick search shows I do!). Based on that, I do question your credibility on the issue.

[Crapshoot]

Old thread on the issue- this cycle keeps repeating itself..

http://ootpdevelopments.com/board/sh...Henry+baseball

[Malleus Dei]

Free agency did IMO ruin baseball, but you should be aware that the critical ruling on free agency (Peter Seitz's ruling on the Messersmith-McNally case) didn't happen until 1975 and that its impact was not felt immediately. Free agency is yet another red herring here - it's a very different subject than steroids.

[jackson41]

First of all, I would like to say I think baseball should inmpose the same drug testing system as USATF and IAAF. In track and field they test everbody, at random, during the season, and during the off season. They'll show up at your house any hour of any day, unannounced, ask you to pee in a cup, and if you fail, automatic two year suspension from competion. And they test for everything. Shawn Crawford won the gold medal in the mens 200m last Olympics after having served a two year suspension from international competion...because he as ADD and the medication he was taking is a banned stimulant. Nobody in track cheats and gets away with it.

With that said, I aslo think the problem of steroids in baseball is blown way out of proportion. Roids alone don't make a good baseball player. In fact, they don't help really help any baseball skills. What they do, is allow a person to recover faster from a workout. A player on roids can workout in the weightroom hard everday as opposed to someone who has to have days to rest. And if you don't work out hard every day, steroids are just expensive piss. But it is still cheating.

I have to agree, Baseball has never been better than it is today. I hate to see the game tarnish by players who cheat, but I also am upset by the media who would rather focus on a few cheaters than focus on the great game of baseball itself. I's time to impose a strict testing policy and move on.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by jackson41

I's time to impose a strict testing policy and move on.

I'll second that. Let's put Olympic-level and -quality testing and enforcement (suspensions and bannings) in place, erase any records set by anyone who ever flunks them, and move on.