HP Ratings - Page 2

dempsonny · 12-21-2004, 04:06 PM

I've seen Robinson 1 punch KO people and was always under the impression he had a 10 HP. He definately had more HP as a WW. When I look at his record I see a lot of DEC. wins and late round TKO's and KO's which leads me to believe he wasn't the KO artist I originally thought. Jackson however would be no match for him. Don't be fooled by Jackson's KO's and over rate his HP. Look at the opposition.

GUS

jofre · 12-21-2004, 04:19 PM

This is from the TBCB Manual:

Hitting Power This category indicates one-punch power: the ability to take out an opponent with a single shot or turn the course of the fight around with one punch. It’s pure concussive power, not accumulative blows, not wear-them-down power. Keep in mind that this category, while obviously important, requires two other ratings to reach its maximum efficiency: CF and Punching Accuracy. A fighter with a CF 7, HP 10 and PA 38 fighting fifty opponents with chins of 3 will not score as many stoppages as a fighter with a CF 10, HP 8 and PA 38, fighting the same fifty opponents. Likewise the fighter with CF 10, HP 8 and PA 38 will not score as many stoppages as a fighter with a CF 10, HP 7 and PA 42. This is also one of the prime categories that must be subjected to a thorough analysis of the competition. A general formula that we can recommend would be to divide (stoppages) by (total bouts) minus a percentage for the (competition factor)/10 rounded up and add +2. So a fighter with 100 fights and 50 stoppages has a .50 knockout factor, has fought weak competition (-20%) = 30, divided by 10 = 3, plus 2 = HP 5.

djday45 · 12-21-2004, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dempsonny

I've seen Robinson 1 punch KO people and was always under the impression he had a 10 HP. He definately had more HP as a WW. When I look at his record I see a lot of DEC. wins and late round TKO's and KO's which leads me to believe he wasn't the KO artist I originally thought. Jackson however would be no match for him. Don't be fooled by Jackson's KO's and over rate his HP. Look at the opposition.

GUS

Agreed,
As I said before I amended Robinson's power levels in my database to 10 at
Welter 9 at Middle and 6 at Light Heavy.

Robinson's power very impressive though it was was not as concussive as say a Graziano, Jackson or Hearns. They are 13 points to play with on the HP chart and you should use them all carefully. Not all strong punchers should be 12+ and not all weak punchers should be 1's.

Robinson had very good power and did one punch KO many fighters BUT this was not his outstanding attribute like a Foreman or a Zarate.

He had much more about him than that. What makes Robinson so dangerous in the game is his very high PL and CF's.

rgds
Dean

wildhawke11 · 12-21-2004, 08:44 PM

Ray Robinson leave at 8 at WW
at MW bring his Hitting Power up to a 6, at best never go above a 7.
You will find in real life Ray had a better KO record at WW although he fought when the MW had a load of talent in there. and some really tough fighters around.

As Jofre and others pointed out CF, DEF, PL play a big part in this game, and Robinson has enough to see him through in most fights.
Trust me on this as a boy i grew up idolising the great Ray Robinson.
So i would never sell my hero short. Plus the MW division is my all time fave one and with all modesty i am pretty good i think with it.

Still its your game i am just offering advice.

Mr Big · 12-21-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dempsonny

Kidd's reply was a great article by Monte Cox. I also agree with MrChallenge. Fighters of yesterday were much more experienced than todays fighters. You can see why Glen Johnson doesn't have great punching power. He is an arm puncher who never steps into his punches. His body weight is not behind his punches. Thomas Hearns used to throw perfect punches. He used to have his weight behind his jabs that's why he used to drop people with a jab. Active fighters for the most part should be adjusted downward in many categories not just HP. This is especially true of the HW's.

Gus

About the experience thing. Does the modern fighters' amateur career count for anything? Vitali Klitschko compiled an amateur record of 119-15, with 80 KOs before ever stepping into the ring as a professional. In contrast, Rocky Marciano is believed to have had only a dozen or so amateur contests before beginning his illustrious career. Is this typical, or is Rocky an isolated case?

While I realize that amateur bouts are 3 rounds and fought with headgear, they do provide a fighter with international experience against a variety of styles and should not be completely disregarded when talking about experience. It's not a coincidence that future heavyweight champions George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, and Lennox Lewis all had extensive amateur backgrounds and won gold medals at the Olympics. While not a guarantee of continued professional success (Wladimir Klitschko), I believe it plays an important role in a fighter's development and future as a pro. Had Jameel McCline and Michael Grant had some time at the amateur level to develop their skills, they may have been heavyweight champion. Without it, they were merely "also rans."

And to say that modern heavyweights should be penalized by lowering their ratings is completely unfair. What the old-timers supposedly had in knowledge and technique is offset by the modern fighters' strength and athleticism. While I'm not convinced that Vitali Klitschko would have defeated all of his predecessors, I think his size and strength would have presented problems for any of the old-time heavyweight champions.

12-21-2004, 11:38 PM

Robinson had great power when he chose to use it. Robinson was a master at carefully boxing his opponent for a few rounds and waiting until the perfect moment. Then he would use his power.

In contrast, fighters like Graziano and Hearns were always looking for the KO.

meade95 · 12-21-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dempsonny

I've seen Robinson 1 punch KO people and was always under the impression he had a 10 HP. He definately had more HP as a WW. When I look at his record I see a lot of DEC. wins and late round TKO's and KO's which leads me to believe he wasn't the KO artist I originally thought. Jackson however would be no match for him. Don't be fooled by Jackson's KO's and over rate his HP. Look at the opposition.

GUS

You have it wrong when it comes to Julian Jackson - Many of the great boxing pundits (Eddie Futch, Emanuel Stewert, Benson, etc) Have all commented on Jackson's simply brutal punching power -

The man didn't just KO people....when he hit them on the button they went completely lights out!! -

And while the debate continues on here older Vs today's age fighters......the fact is Juilan Jackson hit with perfect leverage on his shots - (Juilan didn't have the best chin....but if he hit you on the button ....you went out).

Jim_Kidd · 12-22-2004, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meade95

You have it wrong when it comes to Julian Jackson - Many of the great boxing pundits (Eddie Futch, Emanuel Stewert, Benson, etc) Have all commented on Jackson's simply brutal punching power -

The man didn't just KO people....when he hit them on the button they went completely lights out!! -

And while the debate continues on here older Vs today's age fighters......the fact is Juilan Jackson hit with perfect leverage on his shots - (Juilan didn't have the best chin....but if he hit you on the button ....you went out).

Julian Jackson's power (I have seen over a half-dozen of his fights) was awesome. Mike McCallum (who didn't hit the floor as a pro) stated that Jackson hurt him when he landed. Fortunately for Mike, he caught him with a good shot in the 2nd and didn't let him off the hook.

- Jim

mrchallenge · 12-22-2004, 10:24 AM

After further thought, I now agree with you Meade. Robinson did not hit shot for shot as hard as Jackson did. But he was darn close. Whatever Jackson's HP rating is, Robinson's HP rating shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 lower than that.

dempsonny · 12-22-2004, 10:36 AM

Vitali Klitschko would be the equivilant of Fred Fulton.

Dempsonny

dempsonny · 12-22-2004, 11:00 AM

The case can be made for Jackson's hitting power. I looked at his opponents that either went the distance or into late rounds with him and most displayed good chins against other opponents. There were some exeptions, guys that were KO'd early by others but went dep into fights with him, but that may be looking too deep into it. I'll agree with a 9 or 10 HP for Jackson and I think Robinson gets a 9 as a WW, 7 as a MW and 6 as a LHW.

Dempsonny

wildhawke11 · 12-22-2004, 12:59 PM

The problem is it depends if anyone has already refined the fighters in their own game. I have reduced Hagler to a 10 HP and Burley to 7 etc etc. and my Foreman has a HP of 13 not 14

One of the problems is you cant make the fighter in the game fight as he in fact did. So if you up Robinsons HP to an 8 at MW he will destroy guys far to early, instead of it being a close win for Ray or a middle or late TKO.

Take Jackson
If you fight Robinson as a slugger against him, Ray will have a CF advantage of 2. PL of 48 against Jacksons 38. ( dont forget the comp will take 2 Of Jacksons PL and add on another 4 to Robinsons, and Robinsons PMissed is far better then Jacksons. Even with Robinsons HP at only a 5 he wins over 70% against Jackson.

I still say Robinson WW 8 MW 6 or 7 LHW 5. By the way Jackson is about 11 HP i agree.

As Jim pointed out on paper a fighters HP might look OK but all said and done its just numbers relating to each other, and with all the other factors involved it does not always work out right. The main thing is to try to get the fighters to perform in the game as they did in real life, Regardless of the numbers.

I have posted one of Jims articles under Rating Fighters which might give some newcomers food for thought.

Forgive me Gentleman if the above is a little jumbled but i have just had a few glasses of wine so not at my best with this posting.

LeeSkye · 12-22-2004, 03:08 PM

Quote:

The main thing is to try to get the fighters to perform in the game as they did in real life, Regardless of the numbers.

Danny, I totally agree with you. IMHO there is far too much concern with the numbers themselves and not how the numbers make this game into an accurate simulation of the boxing world. There are a number of the guys on this board who have done a lot of "play testing" to get accurate results and I applaud their hard work as I think that is the key-getting each fighter to perform as close as possible to real life. That "Joe Grim" article was the classic example of how the numbers may "look" wrong but they get the fighter to perform like real life.

Of course, I still love the arguments/discussions on who hit harder and stuff like that - like sitting around the pub with me friends.

Mr Big · 12-22-2004, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dempsonny

Vitali Klitschko would be the equivilant of Fred Fulton.

Dempsonny

I respect your opinion on the matter, but I honestly think Vitali is a better fighter than Fulton. He has more power, a stronger chin, and better overall skills. He is also 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than Fulton. Not an apt comparison, in my opinion.

thebadguy · 12-23-2004, 03:14 AM

Marc420,

I saw that you were asking about a place where you could download re-rated versions of fighters. Be VERY careful when doing this! The ratings that are already on the game have been done by Jim and Tom Trunzo... who are experts at this. Before you do anything, I would go to the articles section of the Title Bout website and read Jim Trunzo's "Explaining the Ratings" (or something like that). Every different rating effects all the other ratings... it is a very complex system. Before you go changing a bunch of stuff, I would learn everything you can about how fighters are rated.

If and when you do download re-rated fighters, I would save them in a seperate database... that way you will always have an original DB (good idea).

www.cornerwork.com is by far the best place to go for fighter downloads that have been created by users. You will also find tons of other stuff as well.

I suggest the first place you visit though is Cube's website. Here, you can get photo packs that have pics of just about every fighter in the game. If I am not mistaken, Cube also has the ENTIRE Cornerwork.com fighter database (DB) available to download... that would save you alot of time and effort. Good luck! PM me if you have a question for me.

Cap · 12-23-2004, 11:01 PM

Fulton out of Blue Rapids, Kansas stood 6' 5" and generally weighed beteen 215 and 220 in his prime. He had terrific power, a nice jab and liked to fight "tall". In his prime he was only stopped the one time in New Jersey by Jack Dempsey and two years later Harry Wills put him away in 3. Chances are Dempsey caught him cold. Harry Wills had to earn his KO. Fulton was likely closer to Wladimir Klitschko than Vitali.

Cap

Mr Big · 12-23-2004, 11:51 PM

I'll agree with you there, Cap. While Wladimir is still taller and heavier, he is closer to Fulton than Vitali.

djday45 · 12-24-2004, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap

Fulton out of Blue Rapids, Kansas stood 6' 5" and generally weighed beteen 215 and 220 in his prime. He had terrific power, a nice jab and liked to fight "tall". In his prime he was only stopped the one time in New Jersey by Jack Dempsey and two years later Harry Wills put him away in 3. Chances are Dempsey caught him cold. Harry Wills had to earn his KO. Fulton was likely closer to Wladimir Klitschko than Vitali.

Cap

Just wanted to say Cap you know your fighters! Fulton is very underrated.

rgds
Dean

Mr Big · 12-24-2004, 09:11 PM

Does anyone have a picture of Fred Fulton?

Cap · 12-24-2004, 11:07 PM

Here you go...Fred Fulton, the Sapulpa Plasterer...Merry Christmas!

12-21-2004, 04:06 PM	#21
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Ray Robinson I've seen Robinson 1 punch KO people and was always under the impression he had a 10 HP. He definately had more HP as a WW. When I look at his record I see a lot of DEC. wins and late round TKO's and KO's which leads me to believe he wasn't the KO artist I originally thought. Jackson however would be no match for him. Don't be fooled by Jackson's KO's and over rate his HP. Look at the opposition. GUS __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

12-21-2004, 04:19 PM	#22
jofre Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,139	This is from the TBCB Manual: Hitting Power This category indicates one-punch power: the ability to take out an opponent with a single shot or turn the course of the fight around with one punch. It’s pure concussive power, not accumulative blows, not wear-them-down power. Keep in mind that this category, while obviously important, requires two other ratings to reach its maximum efficiency: CF and Punching Accuracy. A fighter with a CF 7, HP 10 and PA 38 fighting fifty opponents with chins of 3 will not score as many stoppages as a fighter with a CF 10, HP 8 and PA 38, fighting the same fifty opponents. Likewise the fighter with CF 10, HP 8 and PA 38 will not score as many stoppages as a fighter with a CF 10, HP 7 and PA 42. This is also one of the prime categories that must be subjected to a thorough analysis of the competition. A general formula that we can recommend would be to divide (stoppages) by (total bouts) minus a percentage for the (competition factor)/10 rounded up and add +2. So a fighter with 100 fights and 50 stoppages has a .50 knockout factor, has fought weak competition (-20%) = 30, divided by 10 = 3, plus 2 = HP 5. __________________ jofre

12-22-2004, 10:36 AM	#30
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Mr Big Vitali Klitschko would be the equivilant of Fred Fulton. Dempsonny __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

12-22-2004, 11:00 AM	#31
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Julian Jackson The case can be made for Jackson's hitting power. I looked at his opponents that either went the distance or into late rounds with him and most displayed good chins against other opponents. There were some exeptions, guys that were KO'd early by others but went dep into fights with him, but that may be looking too deep into it. I'll agree with a 9 or 10 HP for Jackson and I think Robinson gets a 9 as a WW, 7 as a MW and 6 as a LHW. Dempsonny __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

12-23-2004, 03:14 AM	#35
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	To: Marc420 Marc420, I saw that you were asking about a place where you could download re-rated versions of fighters. Be VERY careful when doing this! The ratings that are already on the game have been done by Jim and Tom Trunzo... who are experts at this. Before you do anything, I would go to the articles section of the Title Bout website and read Jim Trunzo's "Explaining the Ratings" (or something like that). Every different rating effects all the other ratings... it is a very complex system. Before you go changing a bunch of stuff, I would learn everything you can about how fighters are rated. If and when you do download re-rated fighters, I would save them in a seperate database... that way you will always have an original DB (good idea). www.cornerwork.com is by far the best place to go for fighter downloads that have been created by users. You will also find tons of other stuff as well. I suggest the first place you visit though is Cube's website. Here, you can get photo packs that have pics of just about every fighter in the game. If I am not mistaken, Cube also has the ENTIRE Cornerwork.com fighter database (DB) available to download... that would save you alot of time and effort. Good luck! PM me if you have a question for me. __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ****ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface)

12-21-2004, 08:44 PM	#24
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Ray Robinson leave at 8 at WW at MW bring his Hitting Power up to a 6, at best never go above a 7. You will find in real life Ray had a better KO record at WW although he fought when the MW had a load of talent in there. and some really tough fighters around. As Jofre and others pointed out CF, DEF, PL play a big part in this game, and Robinson has enough to see him through in most fights. Trust me on this as a boy i grew up idolising the great Ray Robinson. So i would never sell my hero short. Plus the MW division is my all time fave one and with all modesty i am pretty good i think with it. Still its your game i am just offering advice.

12-21-2004, 11:38 PM	#26
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	Robinson had great power when he chose to use it. Robinson was a master at carefully boxing his opponent for a few rounds and waiting until the perfect moment. Then he would use his power. In contrast, fighters like Graziano and Hearns were always looking for the KO.

12-22-2004, 10:24 AM	#29
mrchallenge Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 167	After further thought, I now agree with you Meade. Robinson did not hit shot for shot as hard as Jackson did. But he was darn close. Whatever Jackson's HP rating is, Robinson's HP rating shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 lower than that.

12-22-2004, 12:59 PM	#32
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	The problem is it depends if anyone has already refined the fighters in their own game. I have reduced Hagler to a 10 HP and Burley to 7 etc etc. and my Foreman has a HP of 13 not 14 One of the problems is you cant make the fighter in the game fight as he in fact did. So if you up Robinsons HP to an 8 at MW he will destroy guys far to early, instead of it being a close win for Ray or a middle or late TKO. Take Jackson If you fight Robinson as a slugger against him, Ray will have a CF advantage of 2. PL of 48 against Jacksons 38. ( dont forget the comp will take 2 Of Jacksons PL and add on another 4 to Robinsons, and Robinsons PMissed is far better then Jacksons. Even with Robinsons HP at only a 5 he wins over 70% against Jackson. I still say Robinson WW 8 MW 6 or 7 LHW 5. By the way Jackson is about 11 HP i agree. As Jim pointed out on paper a fighters HP might look OK but all said and done its just numbers relating to each other, and with all the other factors involved it does not always work out right. The main thing is to try to get the fighters to perform in the game as they did in real life, Regardless of the numbers. I have posted one of Jims articles under Rating Fighters which might give some newcomers food for thought. Forgive me Gentleman if the above is a little jumbled but i have just had a few glasses of wine so not at my best with this posting.

12-23-2004, 11:01 PM	#36
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,973	Fulton out of Blue Rapids, Kansas stood 6' 5" and generally weighed beteen 215 and 220 in his prime. He had terrific power, a nice jab and liked to fight "tall". In his prime he was only stopped the one time in New Jersey by Jack Dempsey and two years later Harry Wills put him away in 3. Chances are Dempsey caught him cold. Harry Wills had to earn his KO. Fulton was likely closer to Wladimir Klitschko than Vitali. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

12-23-2004, 11:51 PM	#37
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,238	I'll agree with you there, Cap. While Wladimir is still taller and heavier, he is closer to Fulton than Vitali. __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

12-24-2004, 09:11 PM	#39
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,238	Does anyone have a picture of Fred Fulton? __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

12-24-2004, 11:07 PM	#40
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,973	Here you go...Fred Fulton, the Sapulpa Plasterer...Merry Christmas! Attached Images __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."