How many homers

[Mycroft]

How many wins would Sandy Koufax have had if he played today?

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

How many wins would Sandy Koufax have had if he played today?

None. The guy's 69 years old.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by rogmax11

The waitresses would, of course, be "Bambino's Babes", and Ruth no doubt would be reverently recalled as the Sultan of Twat.

"Sultan of Twat" is priceless.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

How many wins would Sandy Koufax have had if he played today?

Probably about 250, except he'd only be pitching about 180 innings a year and going like 14-7.

Jason

[Dr. Walter Doodah]

With a time-machine we could probably answer all these crazy questions.

[sttfrk]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

How many would he have hit if he had played against blacks, asians, and latinos?

at least 900... what makes you think blacks, asians, and latinos would have been better than the white pitchers he faced?!?

surely you are not suggesting blacks, asians, and latinos are far and away better than the current crop of white players....

[treedom]

Originally Posted by sttfrk

at least 900... what makes you think blacks, asians, and latinos would have been better than the white pitchers he faced?!?

surely you are not suggesting blacks, asians, and latinos are far and away better than the current crop of white players....

Had those players been able to play in the ML back then, it would've meant a larger talent pool for it to draw from, thus increasing the overall quality of the pitchers he faced.

[benchwarmer]

He would have a losing record and ERA above 4.00

[sttfrk]

Originally Posted by treedom

Had those players been able to play in the ML back then, it would've meant a larger talent pool for it to draw from, thus increasing the overall quality of the pitchers he faced.

which may have made Ruth all that much better. He would have done what he needed to dominate those players much the same way. There are many more reasons to believe Ruth would have been even better facing better competition than they are that the Babe somehow would have been worse because of it.

Also, that's a huge conjecture to presume blacks, asians, and latinos were significantly that much better on average than the white pitchers Ruth was facing. Do we just automatically assume that Josh Gibson would have hit over 1,000 homeruns had he been afforded the opportunity to play against whites, asians, and latinos?!? If anything, I would wager that Gibson would have hit roughly the same number of homeruns, but most likely less than Ruth when facing the exact same competition.

Unless it can be proven that the composite quality of the average pitcher Ruth faced was sigificantly lower, the only opinion I can have is that Ruth would have been Ruth regardless of the race of the pitchers he faced.

[Tib]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

"Sultan of Twat" is priceless.

I'm happy to have been even a small part of a genius post like that.

[ctorg]

I'd say a conservative ballpark estimate is somewhere around 24,455,223,321, give or take 24,455,222,607 or so.

[messenjah]

But think of it this way, if there are 1000 white, asian, latino and black pitchers, and you need to fill out a league with 100 pitchers. If you have an all white league, you will have the top 100 white pitchers, but if you have a mixed league, you will have the top 25 white, black, asian and latino pitchers out there, meaning the pitching from night to night will be harder. It's not saying that the asian latino or black pitchers were any better or worse, just that with more people out there, you have a deeper pool of players, and generally the level of pitching goes up.

[sttfrk]

Originally Posted by messenjah

But think of it this way, if there are 1000 white, asian, latino and black pitchers, and you need to fill out a league with 100 pitchers. If you have an all white league, you will have the top 100 white pitchers, but if you have a mixed league, you will have the top 25 white, black, asian and latino pitchers out there, meaning the pitching from night to night will be harder. It's not saying that the asian latino or black pitchers were any better or worse, just that with more people out there, you have a deeper pool of players, and generally the level of pitching goes up.

that's pure speculation. maybe the top 100 white pitchers also included the top 80 or 90 pitchers of all the races. I mean, there no reason to believe the top 25 black, asian, or latinos pitchers were any better than the top 50 or top 100 white pitchers. You can't just assume they were better. I'm not assuming they were worse either.

I also stand by my original theory that regardless, Ruth was talented and motivated (in his younger years anyway) enough to raise his game if the pitching pool had been more talented, even though no evidence exists to suggest it would have been.

Take the current major leagues... are blacks, asians, and latinos really better than their white counterparts?!? Aren't most pitchers white?!?

[AngelinOF]

Originally Posted by treedom

Had those players been able to play in the ML back then, it would've meant a larger talent pool for it to draw from, thus increasing the overall quality of the pitchers he faced.

Or 'chicks would of been digging the long ball' earlier and parks would of been built for the power side of the game early on.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by sttfrk

that's pure speculation. maybe the top 100 white pitchers also included the top 80 or 90 pitchers of all the races. I mean, there no reason to believe the top 25 black, asian, or latinos pitchers were any better than the top 50 or top 100 white pitchers. You can't just assume they were better. I'm not assuming they were worse either.

I also stand by my original theory that regardless, Ruth was talented and motivated (in his younger years anyway) enough to raise his game if the pitching pool had been more talented, even though no evidence exists to suggest it would have been.

Take the current major leagues... are blacks, asians, and latinos really better than their white counterparts?!? Aren't most pitchers white?!?

OMFG.

While I appreciate the belief that Ruth would step up his game slightly with increased competition, I cannot believe that you would seriously think that 90% of the best pitchers of ALL TIME in ALL of HISTORY are white.

Satchel Paige
Smokey Joe Williams
Rube Foster
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichal are easy examples of pitchers that would belong in your top 100.

Hmmm. . . I've calmed down a bit. To appeal to your rational thought. . . think about how many pitchers in the majors are not white. Think about how many #1 and #2 starters are Latino/Black/Asian. Now think how much easy Bonds, Pujols or Ichiro would have it if instead of these pitchers, they got to hit off of an additional dozen or two Triple A starters. Oh wait. . . they wouldn't be allowed to play so. . . Imagine if Todd Helton got to play against the current crop of white pitchers (which admittedly, is pretty good) and Triple A scrubs. I'm sure he could have hit 50 HRs this year.

So to sum this all up:

Ruth hitting a ton of homers if he played today?
Sure.
But would he be better than everyone playing today?
No way.
Ruth is the first. He's like Neil Armstrong. He started something that changed the nature of baseball. But thinking that he is the best that ever was or ever will be? Pure speculation.

[sttfrk]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Pure speculation.

That about sums it up. If you actually read my post, you would have seen I never said 90% of the all time best pitchers were white. I said it was a possiblity that 80 to 90% of the best pitchers in Ruth's day could have been white. We really don't know how Ruth or any of the Negro league players would have been if they were able to face all races all the time.

I do not buy into the theory that Ruth or any other of the Major League players at that time would have been significantly less if they had the opportunity to face blacks, latinos, etc...

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by sttfrk

That about sums it up. If you actually read my post, you would have seen I never said 90% of the all time best pitchers were white. I said it was a possiblity that 80 to 90% of the best pitchers in Ruth's day could have been white. We really don't know how Ruth or any of the Negro league players would have been if they were able to face all races all the time.

I do not buy into the theory that Ruth or any other of the Major League players at that time would have been significantly less if they had the opportunity to face blacks, latinos, etc...

Sttfrk,

First, let me say that I'm sorry if I blew up a little bit at you and made it sound a bit personal.

However, I believe I read your post quite clearly. You wrote that "maybe the top 100 white pitchers also included the top 80 or 90 pitchers of all the races." You never inserted the caveat that you were only talking about pitchers in Ruth's day. (and I would still disagree if you were. 70% is debatable, 60% is what I believe is a more likely figure). I believe it was easy for me to misinterpret what you meant.


I originally thought this topic was a fun speculative one. For me though, it starts to get less fun, when I think about how it's a *sad* thing that we can't know because relatively fully integrated baseball did not start until the 70s (And don't get me started about the cotinued lack of diversity in management).

It also saddens me to think about how we still worship Ruth as some sort of great icon given how much of a jerk he was and how much his shadow diminishes the respect we should give to players like Josh Gibson (Who by all indications had better power. I think he is still the only person to have repotedly hit it out of Yankee Stadium.) Roger Maris (Asterik my @$$) and Hank Aaron.

OK. Sorry to bring gloom to what supposed to be a fun place. . .

So let me end by saying that wouldn't Magic Johnson be the Sultan of Twat?

[rogmax11]

Not so, my fine young friend; though laudable in quantity and quality, Magic Johnson must perforce bow to the great Ruth.

I would, however, accept Magic as the Baron of Booty.