Roger Clemens

[rem]

Didn't play Baseball.

[Long_Long_Name]

I think Mario Lemieux was a great baseball player as a kid. I've heard.

Well, he went on to be the best hockey player ever, so I think he chose the right career .

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by DoogieHowserMD

Please refrain from making sick jokes about death at the expense of those who are no longer with us. I never said anything about a relative's illness so why don't you stop putting words in my mouth?

-- Mark

It didn't look anything like a joke to me, and your statement that Clemens deserves immediate induction in a thread calling for a waiting period waiver due to his mother's illness implies that it is a reason in your mind as well. You are over-reacting, like an alias should.

It doesn't make any sense to waive a long-standing rule simply because a relative of the player is ill. I don't think it does anything for the sport of baseball to waive the rule for Clemens. Let him wait just like everyone else who left the game for reasons other than dying.

[Cardinal Rule]

I don't think Bud Selig or anyone associated with the HOF would publicly state that they will waive the 5-year waiting period for anyone still living. If, God forbid, something terrible would happen to one of our currently active or recently active HOF locks and they passed away suddenly, then maybe. But not likely for someone in Clemens' situation - the message it would send would be questionable, and would cause the other owners and GM's to ask why baseball would incent Roger Clemens to return to the Astros.

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by Cardinal Rule

If, God forbid, something terrible would happen to one of our currently active or recently active HOF locks and they passed away suddenly, then maybe.

Isn't there a clause that says that someone who meets all the criteria for being eligible and that dies will see the waiting period be waved or something to that effect?

[Rasmuth]

They waived the 5 year rule for Roberto Clemente, but that was an extreme circumstance.

[rem]

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

Isn't there a clause that says that someone who meets all the criteria for being eligible and that dies will see the waiting period be waved or something to that effect?

Yes (i.e. Kile). I think if you good enough to get on the ballot, they'll put you up for a vote rightaway.

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by Rasmuth

They waived the 5 year rule for Roberto Clemente, but that was an extreme circumstance.

Actually, it wasn't an extreme circumstance.

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

   1. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
   2. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
   3. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
   4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
   5. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

Source: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...rees/rules.htm

[Dagrims]

That rule applied for Thurman Munson as well. If I recall, he got a fair number of votes.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Easy there, sunshine. I never made any sort of claim that Randy Johnson was a better pitcher than Clemens. I just think you're making a bit of a leap going from "best pitcher of his generation" (which, while debatable, is at least defendable) to "best pitcher since Walter Johnson". Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Hoyt Wilhelm, Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Sandy Koufax all fell in between, after all.

The case for Clemens is defensible. Bill James, in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract puts Clemens at No. 11, without taking into account the years 2001-2004, and goes on to say:

"Like all the modern pitchers, he may deserve to rank higher than I have ranked him. In fact, like Seaver, there is actually a very good argument that he is the greatest pitcher who ever lived."

[TotalEnd98]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

". . .In fact, like Seaver, there is actually a very good argument that he is the greatest pitcher who ever lived."

I happen to believe this is true. About Clemens, not Seaver.

[Spielman]

Originally Posted by mh2365

It seems as thought Roger's major obstacle in returning next year is his mother's health. She is wheel-chair bound and sick. He wants her to see him inducted into the HOF.

IMO Selig should for once do the right thing (LOL!!!!!!) and offer to waive the 5 year rule if Clemens should decide to return this year. Of course the stupid union would have to agree but it's the right thing to do and it's good for baseball to have Rocket go one more year.

So seriously, what this comes down to is that you don't like the five year rule.

Because if anyone's capable of retiring, whining to be inducted right away, and then deciding he wants to make a comeback, it's Clemens.

That said, he IS the greatest pitcher ever.

Only otherones you can make a decent argument for are Johnson, Grove, Spahn and Seaver. Everyone else requires a bias.

-Spielman

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

The case for Clemens is defensible. Bill James, in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract puts Clemens at No. 11, without taking into account the years 2001-2004, and goes on to say:

"Like all the modern pitchers, he may deserve to rank higher than I have ranked him. In fact, like Seaver, there is actually a very good argument that he is the greatest pitcher who ever lived."

He ranks him #11, and you're using this as evidence that he was the greatest ever?

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by Spielman

That said, he IS the greatest pitcher ever.

Only otherones you can make a decent argument for are Johnson, Grove, Spahn and Seaver. Everyone else requires a bias.

Pedro Martinez.

[andymac]

I have never really understood the need to wait five years to induct someone in the first place. There are other sports that don't wait, college basketball coaches come to my mind first. In my opinion, if they have achieved the accomplishments that they should be in the hall of fame, why wait to induct them, whether they are retired or not.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by andymac

I have never really understood the need to wait five years to induct someone in the first place. There are other sports that don't wait, college basketball coaches come to my mind first. In my opinion, if they have achieved the accomplishments that they should be in the hall of fame, why wait to induct them, whether they are retired or not.

I don't know the real reason behind the rule, but I think it's a great rule, and it might be the reason why the Baseball Hall of Fame is the only one people cared. First of all, the emotional factor of the selection is smaller, since the player has been retired for awhile. Secondly, it's basically recycling stars for marketing campaigns.

The fact some took such a long time to be elected is even better. It not only made the fans believe the baseball hall of fame is more exclusive and special than all the other hall of fames, but also generate buzz every year without the league or the hall of fame paying anything.

[markwookungfu]

Cubs fans hate Clemens