VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1947

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by Vris

How can you vote for Misisca, but not Schwarz? Aren't the essentially of the same mold?

Schwarz had much fewer leaderboard appearances. Personally, I voted for him because of what he meant to the game & his team, not pure stats. He was the first player to ever hit 40 or 50 homers & was a phenomenon in his glory days.

Actually, Kinnear is very similar to Misisca, and I may vote for him next year, depending on who is added to the ballot then.

[Vris]

I voted for Kinnear for last season, but didn't this year. I didn't realize it until after I sent in my ballot. I will vote for Kinnear last year because, yes, he is the same type of hitter Misisca is.

I'm with you on Schwarz and your reasons for voting for him, because that's why I voted for him.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by Vris

I will vote for Kinnear last year...

This really is Time Warp Baseball, isn't it?

[rogmax11]

Wow, Vris, you got Dagrimmed!

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by rogmax11

Wow, Vris, you got Dagrimmed!

Oh no. Don't start that! I'm going to retreat back into my burrow and let everything be more serious. Yep, here I go. No more thread hijacking.

I can't believe "Ray of Light" still isn't in the HOF.

[Vris]

I feel so honored. Thanks Dagrims, for truly making me look foolish. I've been awaiting this day. I truly feel like a member of the OOTP Boards now. Thank you.

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

I can't believe "Ray of Light" still isn't in the HOF.

This is his last shot too. If he doesn't get in this year, he'll go the way of the VC like Dark Horse and Seifried and Frenchie before him.

[Matt from TN]

I'll keep this up for another day or two, when the 1946 season will be over.

[jdw]

Matt wrote:

> I'll keep this up for another day or two, when
> the 1946 season will be over.

Wait! Give me time!


John

[jdw]

Bourbon Allen
Ray Brown
Slap Hertzog

Light crop. A lot of good players on the ballot, a lot of them that had long careers of being good or okay. But I see someone like Sam Kass, who was a fine player but was just 2-2-7-7 in OPS in his best years and he really wasn't that great of a hitter in the context of his time. Zegri was 6-8-8-9, despite walking a lot and having respectable 2B and HR power. I like Roy Hobbs a lot, and he's my type of a hitter. But he rarely was a great player... just a long career of "good".

It seems like as TWB passed through the 20s and 30s offensive bump that we produced a lot of good players who hung onto their jobs forever. It let them pile up some big bottom line numbers.

It's really a strange the way the era played. I expected to see more guys stand out with big seasonal numbers that you would have to talk voters down off the ledge about. You know, the Chuck Klein types.

This shouldn't be taken as a "vote against" the rest of the players. I'm just having a tough time sorting them out in my mind as "great", despite all the 3000 hit guys and 1500+ RBI guys. That stat-cruncher program would have been nice to have had through this era to clear up my mind on just how valuable they are.

Anyway...


John

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by jdw

It seems like as TWB passed through the 20s and 30s offensive bump that we produced a lot of good players who hung onto their jobs forever. It let them pile up some big bottom line numbers.

I agree... We had a lot of players who got into the lineup early in their careers, developed well, had longevity and health, and wound up with some excellent career numbers. It does make it difficult to sift through them sometimes.

It looks like, unlike RL baseball, we may wind up with some 3000 hitters and 300-game winners (like Haggan) who may never get in. Of course, we have real history to look back on and see some of the mistakes made in HOF voting, especially the VC. That's one reason why our system is much more selective/exclusive.

As for the single season greatness, I thought when Schwarz had his big years, it would be the beginning of a trend. But, outside of Vancini, we've only had 1 other 40-HR season (Froggy Borgert). That's mainly because (if you look at players ratings), our players over the past decade or 2 have been really equal in ability with only one (Vancini) stand out. IOW, we've had a lot of power hitters with 8's in HR power and a few 9's. When ootp detemines how many HR's are hit every year, all those guys lumped at the top take away HR's from each other. Hence, a lot of 20-30 HR guys. (Note that in 1947 - next season - HR production begins to rise dramatically).

Oh, and I like Klein, btw. In my first solo historical league, he was the cornerstone of my team for a very long time & he won 10-12 BOY's.

[metsgeek]

I've done about 20 personal historical replays over the past couple of years from OOTP4 through today with a variety of twists, and Chuck Klein is ALWAYS one of the best players of all time.

[gcsii99]

Brown
Reneau
Hobbs
Schmeider
Kass
Allen

[Matt from TN]

18 votes... I believe that's the most we've ever gotten for one ballot, although it's close.

If I don't receive any more votes by tomorrow, I'll announce the final results... and boy is it close. One player looks to get in, 2 are barely in and 1 is just short so far.

[jdw]

Matt wrote:

> As for the single season greatness, I
> thought when Schwarz had his big
> years, it would be the beginning of a
> trend. But, outside of Vancini, we've
> only had 1 other 40-HR season (Froggy
> Borgert). That's mainly because (if you
> look at players ratings), our players over
> the past decade or 2 have been really
> equal in ability with only one (Vancini)
> stand out. IOW, we've had a lot of power
> hitters with 8's in HR power and a few 9's.
> When ootp detemines how many HR's
> are hit every year, all those guys lumped
> at the top take away HR's from each other.
> Hence, a lot of 20-30 HR guys.

Interesting.

I expected a few more Schwarz as well, but also some Ken Williams or Hack Woilson types. More than that, Al Simmons? If Oscar is Babe, where's Foxx and Lou? There was no Rogers. It's 1946 and Teddy Ballgame and Joe D didn't pop up.

It's more like a bunch of Bill Terry's, some of them with lower peaks, but with quite a bit more longevity. The bigger super players were back with Woody.

Some of it may be that some top prospects got blocked by guys who played forever. Or that a few too many of us picked ancestors playing non-hitting spots rather than 1B, RF and LF where they might have cranked up big numbers.


> Oh, and I like Klein, btw. In my
> first solo historical league, he
> was the cornerstone of my team
> for a very long time & he won
> 10-12 BOY's.

I suspect Chuck's a great OOTP player because everything breaks well for him in the way the game imports him:

* He's 23 when he gets imported, so the game doesn't factor in that he's going to take several years to develop like an 18-20 year old.

* He hit .360/.396/.577 in that first half season. The BA would have placed #3, SLG #5, the OPS #6 if he had enough PAs. The game thinks he's "great" from the get go.

* As best as I can tell, the game when importing doesn't factor in parks. Klein's are epic. Prior to the guys in Coors, they were the biggest of any alleged "great" player. Not just the biggest, but monsterously the biggest because of the Baker Bowl.

* He hits his peak nearly instantly in his second season (1929) and sustains it through 1933.

* His decline doesn't have that much impact on dragging him down as it would other players. First, because of offenses still being inflated they still look reasonably okay as raw numbers by current standards. Two, his playing time decreases right after his peak.

I could see how OOTP sees him as a great player. He really wasn't.

I think we all know that Sims are like that - they have holes in them that can be exploited by the gamer.


John

[Matt from TN]

Here's an argument for Klein, if you feel like reading it.

[Matt from TN]

Kass, Hobbs and Allen get in. It's Hobbs 2nd ballot & 1st for the other two. Brown literally missed by 1 vote! Shame on you who didn't vote for him, lol...

I'm a little surprised to see Zegri's support dropped significantly after just missing with over 70% last vote.

Sam Kass	83.33%
Roy Hobbs	77.78%
Bourbon Allen	77.78%
Ray Brown	72.22%
Slap Hertzog	61.11%
Bull Zegri	55.56%
John Schmeider	50.00%
Quenton Misisca	44.44%
Dale Reneau	44.44%
Willard Schwarz	27.78%
Jon Minzey	27.78%
Ned Fargo	22.22%
Troy Kinnear	22.22%
Harry Finley	16.67%
Nick Graves	11.11%
Howard Parrish	 5.56%
Brett Smith	 5.56%
Bill Sheeder	 5.56%

The following players failed to get 5% and will be removed from the ballot. The year they become VC eligible is listed in parenthesis:

Froggy Borgert (1963)
Brian Roberge (1963)
Rip Rogers (1963)
Cliff Umbaugh (1963)

"Ray of Light" Brown will be removed from the ballot for having been retired over 20 yrs & will be VC eligible next ballot.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

"Ray of Light" Brown will be removed from the ballot for having been retired over 20 yrs & will be VC eligible next ballot.

That should be a no-brainer for the VC.

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

That should be a no-brainer for the VC.

I thought the same thing about Seifried, and he may not make it this year.

I can't think of anyone whose fielding has made them as strong a candidate as Ray's does for him. He's a good candidate otherwise, but all those GG's are incredible.

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by Vris

p.s. What year does "Dodge" Lee eligible?

sorry Vris, didn't see this... 1950

Next year's class is a little weaker, so I wonder if guys like Hertzog, Zegri, etc can get the support they need then.