Active Player HOF Debate: Catcher - Page 2

holyroller · 06-14-2004, 10:02 PM

Yeah, Ivan Rodriguez is pretty ****ing good.

attackemu · 06-14-2004, 10:10 PM

Pudge is my favourite baseball player and we have the same birthday.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 06-14-2004, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
I'm with Hollis

(I should make a T-Shirt that says that)

This should do the trick rather nicely:

Akrobat · 06-14-2004, 11:10 PM

Brilliant!

matskralc · 06-14-2004, 11:18 PM

Where's the "Jason Kendall" option?

Skipaway · 06-14-2004, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matskralc
Where's the "Jason Kendall" option?

He got better chances than Lopez or Posada, but still not much. Lower peak value/established level than Posada so far, but better than both Lopez or Posada over all. And he's much younger.

Being a OBP player instead of SLG ones like the other two probably hurt him in public perspectives. Never hit enough homeruns to be remembered.

Skipaway · 06-14-2004, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akrobat
Give me a team leader in Jason Varitek anyday. Too bad Tek won't make the hall either though, considering he's so underrated he struggles to get into all-star games while Ramon Hernandez makes the team... sick sick world!

Perhaps you should started another thread about which catcher is better right now.

Jason Varitek doesn't belong in hall of fame threads. This guy is already 32 and got only one semi-good season so far!!!

LivnLegend · 06-15-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eckstein 4 Prez
This should do the trick rather nicely:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Rack it!

swampdragon · 06-15-2004, 01:33 AM

Two first ballot locks and no one else on the horizon. As a Ranger fan, I've probably seen 500 Pudge games, and he's absolutely incredible. Piazza is only the best hitting catcher of all time. Lopez has blossomed too late, and Posada only gets in if they open a Hall of Above Average.

Karros270 · 06-15-2004, 01:42 AM

I can't believe Piazza is leading Pudge, but then again I tend to over value devense. In any event, I don't think Pudge is such a bad option just based on offense.

Skipaway · 06-15-2004, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by swampdragon
Lopez has blossomed too late, and Posada only gets in if they open a Hall of Above Average.

Lopez blossomed too late? He was very good in 1997~1999. 2003 is a fluke.

Posada is much more than above average. He hits better than an average 1B. The major knock on him is actually blossomed too late. If he started performing at all-star level at age 23 instead of 28, he'd be a lock for HOF right now.

holyroller · 06-15-2004, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
Lopez blossomed too late? He was very good in 1997~1999. 2003 is a fluke.

Posada is much more than above average. He hits better than an average 1B. The major knock on him is actually blossomed too late. If he started performing at all-star level at age 23 instead of 28, he'd be a lock for HOF right now.

Realize I am beating a dead horse here, but it wasn't his fault. The Yankees kept him on the bench behind Joe Girardi for years because Joe provided "leadership" and "intangibles".

Joshv02 · 06-15-2004, 07:49 AM

Since 2000, Posada has been pretty close to IR offensively:

JP: .278/.381/.497
IR: .314/.361/.548

'Tek is much closer to Lieberthal than Posada, and both are a notch below, offensively:

JV: .257/.343/.486
ML: .286/.351/.446

Piazza trumps them all:

.299/.380/.564

Just looking at offense, Posada is much better than 'Tek; it ain't really that close (a .380 OBA vs. a .340 OBA is a light year away). Neither has a great arm, but neither has a Piazza arm ('Tek about 27%, Posada at about 29%).

Since 2000, Posada also has 500 more PAs than IROD, 630 more than 'Tek, and about 700 more than ML. (Posada played 151 games in 2000 (!) and hasn't missed much time since.)

JP, JV, ML, and IROD, are all about the same age.

MP/IR/JP/JV-ML is my order. Lopez is between JP and JV (but closer to JV).

mlyons · 06-15-2004, 07:49 AM

I thought this board loved OBP? Or is that only for non-Yankees? It's too early to tell for Posada, but if he puts up five more seasons like his last five, he's got a real good shot. Piazza and Rodriguez are most likely locks. Lopez has been too inconsistent over his career, I think.

KurtBevacqua · 06-15-2004, 08:41 AM

Piazza and Pudge are first ballot guys if they retire tomorrow.

Here's how Baseball-Reference.com compares Posada to his all-time peers:
Similar Batters through Age 31
Mike Lieberthal (929)
Carlton Fisk (924) *
Johnny Romano (914)
Todd Hundley (910)
Charles Johnson (906)
Javy Lopez (902)
Eddie Taubensee (899)
Chris Hoiles (898)
Ed Bailey (898)
Jody Davis (892)
Granted, Fisk is on the list, but Fisk was a fluke. His career was just getting started at 31. He played another 15 years. I have a hard time seeing him catch another 5 years, let alone 15. And he's only really had five years as a regular (going on 6 now). Other than being a Yankee, I see nothing to put him in the Hall when guys like Bill Freehan and Lance Parrish aren't in.

Javy has a much better case the Jorge. Javy has nine seasons as a regular catcher (going on 10) many of which were consistantly at a higher quality than Posada's. Here's Baseball-Reference.com's most similar:
Similar Batters through Age 32
Gabby Hartnett (919) *
Carlton Fisk (896) *
Roy Campanella (892) *
Ernie Lombardi (872) *
Del Crandall (870)
Benito Santiago (858)
Jack Clements (839)
Todd Hundley (836)
Terry Kennedy (829)
Lance Parrish (825

I see a lot more Hall of Famers on Javy's list than Posada's. The four most closely suited to Javy's career track are all in the Hall. If Javy has another 3 seasons comparable to what he's done so far I'd say he gets in. Posada needs at least 5.

draven085 · 06-15-2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mlyons
I thought this board loved OBP? Or is that only for non-Yankees? It's too early to tell for Posada, but if he puts up five more seasons like his last five, he's got a real good shot. Piazza and Rodriguez are most likely locks. Lopez has been too inconsistent over his career, I think.

Although you'd love to play the "Anti-Yankee" card I find it difficult to consider a guy who has played more than 115 games only four times in his career by the age of 32 hall material.

I voted for Piazza and Pudge.

Gastric ReFlux · 06-15-2004, 09:44 AM

What's with all the Girardi-hating in this thread?

Skipaway · 06-15-2004, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtBevacqua

I see a lot more Hall of Famers on Javy's list than Posada's. The four most closely suited to Javy's career track are all in the Hall. If Javy has another 3 seasons comparable to what he's done so far I'd say he gets in. Posada needs at least 5.

Similarity test is not exactly a good way to see if someone is hall of fame worthy. You know there is only one hall of famer on Joe Morgan's similarity batter list?

All those hall of famers on Lopez's list were better than Lopez through age 32.

Also, what do you mean by another 3 seasons of what Lopez has done? 2001 kind of year? 2002? 2003? The only way for him to get into hall of fame would be 4 or 5 more years at the 2003 level, which is nearly impossible.

sixto · 06-15-2004, 11:04 AM

I'd say Ivan Rodriguez cinched his immortality by "leading" the Marlins to the World Series. He is a good player who had a great peak season despite walking just 24 times. Also aging surprisingly well for a catcher.

I don't care too much for Posada. The Hall of Fame is not for players who could have been great if given the playing time - a lot more people would be in if so. Javy Lopez has a better case, but still, I don't see it. He matches perfectly with the dozens and dozens of Fred Lynn types who will never be in the HOF.

CommishJoe · 06-15-2004, 11:53 AM

I like Posada a lot, but I don't see him in the hall. Piazza and I-Rod get my vote.

View Poll Results: Who gets your vote?
Mike Piazza	52	82.54%
Ivan Rodriguez	53	84.13%
Javy Lopez	1	1.59%
Jorge Posada	5	7.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

06-14-2004, 10:02 PM	#21
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Yeah, Ivan Rodriguez is pretty ****ing good. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-14-2004, 10:10 PM	#22
attackemu All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 972	Pudge is my favourite baseball player and we have the same birthday. __________________ "Disguised in EMU's Blunt and sometimes hostile post is actually very sound advice. I think you would be wise to consider what he said." -ihatenames

06-14-2004, 11:10 PM	#24
Akrobat All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 922	Brilliant! __________________ Writers-Bloc -- Boston Saints -1990: Player to be Announced

06-14-2004, 11:18 PM	#25
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	Where's the "Jason Kendall" option? __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

06-15-2004, 01:33 AM	#29
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Two first ballot locks and no one else on the horizon. As a Ranger fan, I've probably seen 500 Pudge games, and he's absolutely incredible. Piazza is only the best hitting catcher of all time. Lopez has blossomed too late, and Posada only gets in if they open a Hall of Above Average.

06-15-2004, 01:42 AM	#30
Karros270 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,392	I can't believe Piazza is leading Pudge, but then again I tend to over value devense. In any event, I don't think Pudge is such a bad option just based on offense. __________________ now everybody's praying...don't prey on me

06-15-2004, 07:49 AM	#33
Joshv02 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: , " Posts: 3,082	Since 2000, Posada has been pretty close to IR offensively: JP: .278/.381/.497 IR: .314/.361/.548 'Tek is much closer to Lieberthal than Posada, and both are a notch below, offensively: JV: .257/.343/.486 ML: .286/.351/.446 Piazza trumps them all: .299/.380/.564 Just looking at offense, Posada is much better than 'Tek; it ain't really that close (a .380 OBA vs. a .340 OBA is a light year away). Neither has a great arm, but neither has a Piazza arm ('Tek about 27%, Posada at about 29%). Since 2000, Posada also has 500 more PAs than IROD, 630 more than 'Tek, and about 700 more than ML. (Posada played 151 games in 2000 (!) and hasn't missed much time since.) JP, JV, ML, and IROD, are all about the same age. MP/IR/JP/JV-ML is my order. Lopez is between JP and JV (but closer to JV). __________________ Brookline Maccabees. RIP

06-15-2004, 07:49 AM	#34
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	I thought this board loved OBP? Or is that only for non-Yankees? It's too early to tell for Posada, but if he puts up five more seasons like his last five, he's got a real good shot. Piazza and Rodriguez are most likely locks. Lopez has been too inconsistent over his career, I think. __________________ Things can always be worse.

06-15-2004, 08:41 AM	#35
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	Piazza and Pudge are first ballot guys if they retire tomorrow. Here's how Baseball-Reference.com compares Posada to his all-time peers: Similar Batters through Age 31 Mike Lieberthal (929) Carlton Fisk (924) * Johnny Romano (914) Todd Hundley (910) Charles Johnson (906) Javy Lopez (902) Eddie Taubensee (899) Chris Hoiles (898) Ed Bailey (898) Jody Davis (892) Granted, Fisk is on the list, but Fisk was a fluke. His career was just getting started at 31. He played another 15 years. I have a hard time seeing him catch another 5 years, let alone 15. And he's only really had five years as a regular (going on 6 now). Other than being a Yankee, I see nothing to put him in the Hall when guys like Bill Freehan and Lance Parrish aren't in. Javy has a much better case the Jorge. Javy has nine seasons as a regular catcher (going on 10) many of which were consistantly at a higher quality than Posada's. Here's Baseball-Reference.com's most similar: Similar Batters through Age 32 Gabby Hartnett (919) * Carlton Fisk (896) * Roy Campanella (892) * Ernie Lombardi (872) * Del Crandall (870) Benito Santiago (858) Jack Clements (839) Todd Hundley (836) Terry Kennedy (829) Lance Parrish (825 I see a lot more Hall of Famers on Javy's list than Posada's. The four most closely suited to Javy's career track are all in the Hall. If Javy has another 3 seasons comparable to what he's done so far I'd say he gets in. Posada needs at least 5. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

06-15-2004, 09:44 AM	#37
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	What's with all the Girardi-hating in this thread?

06-15-2004, 11:04 AM	#39
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,270	I'd say Ivan Rodriguez cinched his immortality by "leading" the Marlins to the World Series. He is a good player who had a great peak season despite walking just 24 times. Also aging surprisingly well for a catcher. I don't care too much for Posada. The Hall of Fame is not for players who could have been great if given the playing time - a lot more people would be in if so. Javy Lopez has a better case, but still, I don't see it. He matches perfectly with the dozens and dozens of Fred Lynn types who will never be in the HOF.

06-15-2004, 11:53 AM	#40
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	I like Posada a lot, but I don't see him in the hall. Piazza and I-Rod get my vote. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.