Loyalty, Patches, Drama

[Malleus Dei]

That wasn't my last post.

[silvam14]

Originally posted by JamesOOTP
I never said there wasn't any problems poncho. By the way, I see a grammatical error in your last post. It should be: "but if you want to go on dreaming that there...

English teachers are welcome here, but I don't anyone here needs grammar lessons. We've all been known to fat finger the keyboard now and then....

[Malleus Dei]

I have actually taught English before.

[CHCfan]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

If you aren't smart enough to recognize that there really is a problem then go look at the numbers on the OOTP6 satisfaction poll. For earlier versions, that poll would have been running 90%+ positive, but for OOTP6 it's running about 40%-45% negative. That's quite literally unheard of.

But if you want to go on dreaming that they aren't any problems and that nothing is wrong, well, feel free. Ignorance is bliss, and you can go on being the happiest of men.

I saw a thing on Dateline or something a long time ago about eyewitnesses innacurately remembering a crime (stay with me . . .). They set up a camera in a classroom and hired a guy to run in and steal the teacher's purse. The first thing the teacher, who was in on the 'scam,' said was "What a large nose that man had." To demonstrate Dateline's point about witnesses being wrong in their testimony, they questioned each student who was present in private, asking them to describe the fake thief.

Even though the man's nose was no bigger than average (maybe smaller even), nearly every student claimed he had a large nose. Just because they heard their teacher commented on it. They heard her opinion and their minds eventually believed for themselves.

Maybe I just like this story because it shows how weak some people's personal opinions are, or maybe I thought it could tie into all the OOTP6 negativity. If I hadn't visited this messageboard even once since purchasing the game, I would never have guessed that there was anything 'wrong' with it. I think some people would agree with me when I say the vast majority of the posters here think v.6 is wonderful. I think a lot of the negativity comes primarily from the fact that those who talk alot have issues with the game. Their opinions are rubbing off on other people who may not actually feel animosity toward the game, at heart.

Finally, sorry for the long post. Some people may not get my analogy (don't feel bad, it's a rather poor one), but it summed up how I feel pretty well.

Thanks,
Brian

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by CHCfan
I think some people would agree with me when I say the vast majority of the posters here think v.6 is wonderful.

Right. This is why the poll ran about 45% negative.

Have a dried frog pill.

[gmo]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Have a dried frog pill.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but I gotta ask what that means... What does that mean??

Anyway, I don't doubt the veracity of the poll in assessing the overall opinion of those on this board. Yet CHCfan's post does bring up something - the idea of (like Nixon said?) the silent majority. Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess would be that less than 40-45% of all users, er, "players" sounds better, are unsatisfied with the game. But that doesn't mean those displeased have no point. They can be a useful force.

Also at least like CHCfan said, it does seem that some negative opinions here are begetting similar or other negative opinions. But I won't just brand that as "bad" even though some tones and attitudes exhibited here get very annoying and do not seem capable of being in any way positive. Furthermore, I'm not fond of the idea that people can set off firestorms to get their way with the game. Yet good might come from cases where some people's issues and complaint cause other people to say something like, "ya know, it's not the biggest issue and I've been okay with it for a while, but if this longstanding {blank} also was {fixed/enhanced/etc} I think it would be really good for the game, so I'm going to bring it up."

That seems like the environment now - a good opportunity for people to air out grievances since there are probably others around with the same feelings to provide backup and support. Though my feeling is a lot of this has been done poorly I hope it works out for the best and helps the game in the long run. An example - for me it would be ideal and worth all the ruckus and hard feelings if OOTP decides to be more careful about saying some things and more open about some different things, while we learn about how they are going to keep us informed and can live with it (er, vague much). Seems like some of that is now occurring.

I'm sure people are sick of my opinion now, but that's what the board is for, right? Oh, and what was this thread about anyway?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by gmo
Maybe it's not a good idea, but I gotta ask what that means... What does that mean??

It's a Terry Pratchett reference; one of the Discworld characters, the Bursar, lives in a fantasy world in his own mind. He takes dried frog pills (made from "small brightly coloured tree frogs from the humid jungles of Klatch") for his condition.

[gmo]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
It's a Terry Pratchett reference; one of the Discworld characters, the Bursar, lives in a fantasy world in his own mind. He takes dried frog pills (made from "small brightly coloured tree frogs from the humid jungles of Klatch") for his condition.

Mm-hmm. Since I don't know what much of that is either it doesn't clarify much, but it gets me to a point where I can look it up myself if I remain curious.

OOTP lets me try to do that. The fantasy world in own mind thing, not the frog pills, though I hear they taste just like chicken pills.

[sporr]

The only bad thing about citing that poll where there were 40-45% unsatisfied customers is that it only takes into account a very small sample of all OOTP game players. First we have the entire group of OOTP buyers, then we have those buyers who come to the message board, then we have those people who come to the message board who viewed that poll thread, then we have those people that viewed the poll thread that actually responded. A large portion of "satisfied" customers will likely never have a reason to come to the boards at all since they have no issues with the game or don't use add-ons, or any of a number of other reasons.

[Henry]

Originally posted by sporr
The only bad thing about citing that poll where there were 40-45% unsatisfied customers is that it only takes into account a very small sample of all OOTP game players. First we have the entire group of OOTP buyers, then we have those buyers who come to the message board, then we have those people who come to the message board who viewed that poll thread, then we have those people that viewed the poll thread that actually responded. A large portion of "satisfied" customers will likely never have a reason to come to the boards at all since they have no issues with the game or don't use add-ons, or any of a number of other reasons.

This is a very good point. Most OOTP game owners do not get into the game as much as we do. If they don't visit this board, they wouldn't even know about all the addons for the game, etc.

What's important to note about that is those that visit here are probably the hard-core OOTP customers - pushing the game to it's limits and finding issues in the process.

This is a good thing, because the hardcore-hardnose guys are what helps us make the game better - BUT -

It's critically important not to assume or state opinions that suggest the polls taken here are an indication of the "global" community. As an example, it wouldn't suprise me if you asked ALL OOTP owners if they were satisfied - you would get a 90% + response - not becasue the issues you've raised aren't true - but because most customers haven't ran into them since they don't push the game the same way.

You guys that are here to read this drive the game and where it's going (plus or minus Markus' wants and wishes) but please be careful when stating that the "entire community knows there is a serious problem here" when in fact about 200-300 hardcore users out of the entire OOTP customer base is even aware of it.

We want to help just like you do, but seeing the forest rather than just the tree your interested in goes a long way in keeping things focused.

[Malleus Dei]

Okay, it's a afct that the borad members are a subset of all OOTP users. Howvere, the logic that was postulated to try and spin the poll away, that only the ones who "push the game" visit the boards, is clearly fallacious. Historically, the people who visit gaming boards include those who have questions about the game and/or who have problems with the game as well as the modder and expert crowds - in other words, for every Henry there's a Metball. You people all know that troubled users come here; all you have to do is read the board to see that. So how do you know if of them voted or not? Did you look at the data? If so, please enlighten us. Otherwise, simply dismissing the satisfaction poll for out of hand for allegedly not being representative is bogus. What we all DO know is that polls like that are the only post-sale satisfaction metric that we can reasonably obtain.

You can try to spin it enough to make the reality of it go away some, but to do that you're going to need to put a LOT more spin on it than that.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Henry
We want to help just like you do, but seeing the forest rather than just the tree your interested in goes a long way in keeping things focused.

Metaphorically, we're worried that the forest may have blight.

[Malleus Dei]

Or perhaps that it may even be on fire.

[Henry]

Mal,

Let me start by saying I've gotten along with you remarkably well over the years, and have tried to stay "above" taking issue with your approach to problems, but with all due respect, it absolutely amazes me how much trouble you go through to twist anything I or Steve says to your advantage.

I DID NOT dismiss the poll, and it was NEVER my intention to do so. I simply put it in perspective - something you may have lost sight of recently.

Forgive me for my forwardness, but it's a sad commentary that some choose to push things to extremes because the only answer they want is "please forgive me master, I am wrong and will not only fix your concern but solve the world's problems as well".

I want this game perfect as much (maybe more) than anyone else - but "demanding" it be done now and claiming there are no excuses sounds a bit dictorial and unfeeling.

This board is supposed to be an open forum with "discussion and compromise" its flag. Attempting to flatten the tires of every attempt to work toward a solution will only bring unfocus and distrust.

Some of us put in hours upon hours of personal time to help here in one way or another, and the undermining of our efforts to do so - leaves a bitter taste in one's mouth.

The game needs work - and everyone here is trying to do that correctly AND keep a positive attitude on the board. If we're given half a chance, we may be able to accomplish more than simply defending ourselves.

Disclaimer : Once again I have to state I am not an employee of OOTP and the above comments are mine alone.

Henry

PS: Oh, and please don't attempt to claim what my purposes are in posting an opinion. I have no hidden agenda, but making such claims is a way to convince the masses I do.

======================================

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Okay, it's a afct that the borad members are a subset of all OOTP users. Howvere, the logic that was postulated to try and spin the poll away, that only the ones who "push the game" visit the boards, is clearly fallacious. Historically, the people who visit gaming boards include those who have questions about the game and/or who have problems with the game as well as the modder and expert crowds - in other words, for every Henry there's a Metball. You people all know that troubled users come here; all you have to do is read the board to see that. So how do you know if of them voted or not? Did you look at the data? If so, please enlighten us. Otherwise, simply dismissing the satisfaction poll for out of hand for allegedly not being representative is bogus. What we all DO know is that polls like that are the only post-sale satisfaction metric that we can reasonably obtain.

You can try to spin it enough to make the reality of it go away some, but to do that you're going to need to put a LOT more spin on it than that.

[Malleus Dei]

Who is undermining your efforts? I respect your efforts and have said so.

I disagreed with a conclusion that you drew. I think it was wrong, and I explained why. If you found my honest disagreement to be insulting, then let me assure you that such was not my intent.

I think you're a good guy, but I also think that you're wrong about the dissatisfaction levels. These two items are not mutually exclusive.

[Malleus Dei]

As to the "demand" comment, let me quote Holyroller:

"Now, I'm not going to say Markus has to do that, he's a free and sentient being and it is his game and his $ on the line. I'm only speaking for what I would like to see as a customer."

[Henry]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Who is undermining your efforts? I respect your efforts and have said so.

I disagreed with a conclusion that you drew. I think it was wrong, and I explained why. If you found my honest disagreement to be insulting, then let me assure you that such was not my intent.

I think you're a good guy, but I also think that you're wrong about the dissatisfaction levels. These two items are not mutually exclusive.

As to the "demand" comment, let me quote Holyroller:

"Now, I'm not going to say Markus has to do that, he's a free and sentient being and it is his game and his $ on the line. I'm only speaking for what I would like to see as a customer."

Ok. If we're misunderstanding intentions here under the heat of the moment, then I'm all for correcting that perception. I believe all I was saying was that we only have a handle of opinion on those that have responded. That is not to say I'm trying to water down the seriousness of the issues - but trying to water down the perception that 46% of OOTP's entire customer base is unhappy. We don't know that. We only know that 46% of the those that responded are unhappy.

In either case, we're going attempt to fix what we can, which is nothing less than the customer base should expect - it just doesn't seem right to allow a perception that 46% of (pick a number) 10,000 customers are beating down the gates with their unhappiness.

On the other hand, if we agree to disagree, that's ok with me as well - as long as we do it respectfully. I don't expect all of us to agree on everything - but I do expect us to respect each other to the point where we can go out and have a beer after disagreeing on something. It would be a pretty boring world if we all thought the same on everything (wouldn't have much to discuss).

In reference to Holyroller's comment, I certainly understand that customer satisfaction drives the success of a product - but I also understand that there is no perfect product out there whether we're talking about a baseball game or a new car, or a computer system. Or, better put, there no product out there that is "exactly" what "I" want in terms of a baseball game, a new car, or a computer system....

Thus, I have to make compromises. I have to pick the product that comes the closest to what I want.

I see that scenario playing out here. Each of us wants something slightly different... Markus certainly has an idea of what HE wants, and all of it simply isn't going to come together in a way that pleases everyone.

If we all are willing to take a deep breath and accept that, things will work out well - but if I scream to holy H__ and back because that isn't what "I" wanted, I can easily be the catalyst that gets a concensus started that OOTPD doesn't care what I want - and that's the farthest from the truth you can get.

All I've ever tried to "preach" here is "tactful understanding and compromise".

[CommishJoe]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
I obviously don't know for sure, but with CM my first design was great for what I wanted to do at that time - however over the course of several years my ambitions for the engine increased and I stretched it severely with new features and ideas (and increased data in CM's case) ... this wasn't particular a case of a short-sighted design.

Simply that every design has limitations and when you make the original decisions you can't always anticipate the manner in which the game will evolve (especially the case with Sports sims as designers of them will often be partially lead by their fan base, this is the case with both CM and OOTP).

Same thing happened with BOSI in a BIG hurry. And, I'm not even running any simulations with it. This is VERY easy to do, and VERY hard to work your way out of. It's the reason why BOSI v2 is still being coded and not released yet.

[gmo]

Some things just would not seem right. I would have freaked out if Steve or Henry had jumped in above and said something like, "Yep, maybe there's a lot of silent happy people out there, but I bet there's a whole lot of unhappy customers who are for whatever reason not posting here, as the game has a lot of problems and shortcomings." My face would double in length as my jaw dropped to my chest and my eyebrows jumped to my hairline.

Steve & Henry take the positive outlook, which I like from them in their positions. They say enough to make me believe that they recognize problems with the game, that they do not ignore those problems, that they are not trying to squelch the negative opinions. They can take the sunshine approach and still be trying to improve the game as much as and likely more than those who gather the storm clouds. It is understandable if the positivity seems overly saccharine at times, especially when there are negative issues out there one cares about strongly. I shake my head when after features are noted for a coming release people start saying things like the game is going to be perfect now. But not every parade needs to be rained on, and it's okay to throw a parade when it is raining.

[DiMaggio5CF]

It seems to me that OOTP is still, instead of trying to give explanations and solutions, trying to dispute the notion that there are problems at all.