my study of SI games inc. and ootp 6

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Doing 'historic' leagues in soccer is much much more problematic than for baseball for various reasons:

* The rules of soccer have changed hugely over the years and to do an accurate representation of a historic league you'd need to implement all of these nuances in the game ...
* Lack of accurate historic data, due to the scope of the game ...
* Change in composition of the leagues themselves over the years has been huge ... plus the various point scoring methods used in competitions ....

Yes, for historical football leagues it would probably be more diffcult. But some of the points you mentioned above also confront OOTP.

The rules of baseball have also changed quite a bit over the years, both on and off the field. But while many rules from baseball's past have not been implemented in OOTP by Markus, the flavour is there and that's a good starting point. By loading in the historic players from the Lahman Database, their seasonal statistics can still come out to fairly good approximations of the real past, thanks to the options for tweaking such things in OOTP. Ask Markus about it, I'm sure he can explain this aspect to his game much better than I can.

Similarly, baseball has changed its league compositions as well over the years. In 1901, it was two 8 team leagues, which then expanded to two 10 team leagues, then two 12 team leagues which were each split into two 6 team divisions, then eventually to two 14 team leagues each with two 7 team divisions, which were later realigned into 3 divisions in each league, and so forth. OOTP is able to handle all of these compositions, along with many more that never actually happened in the major leagues. Again, Markus can better explain just how much his game can handle various league compositions.

Finally, you're right about the lack of historical stats for football, that probably would be the biggest drawback. This is definitely not an issue for baseball, as it has a long and very detailed statistical past, and a number of excellent web sites devoted to that aspect alone.

But that's why I focused more on the fictional side of things...

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

With regards to ficticious leagues we have a 'random' option which you can select at startup to randomise all the players in the game, we'll probably look to improve this further at some point in the future to make this style of play more configurable - however we have lots we want to implement on the 'realistic' game at the moment.

Yes, I was aware of that. And I understand that the focus is mostly on recreating the existing world, and that's fine. I just wanted to point out that a more robust system for creating fictional worlds that goes beyond just creating imaginary players for the existing leagues would pull even more people to the game, and give them a new and interesting way of playing it.

For example, one could decide to create a Super-Premier League using, say, the 12 best teams from the current Premier League to see what that would be like. Or, one could create an entirely fictional Britannia Football Association using whatever clubs or host cities they felt like. Similarly, someone could decide to make a pan-European league of the continent's strongest clubs playing out a season every year, or for North America, create an entirely imaginary North American Soccer Union of the biggest 16 or 20 cities. These kinds of ideas are just scratching the surface.

Just take a spin through the 'Dynasty" section of the OOTP boards to get an idea of the many different ways people have created fictional leagues, either entirely imaginary or inspired by "what if" scenarios from baseball's actual past. Or, just take some time trying these kinds of things out in OOTP itself; the possibilities available may seem rather overwhelming at first, but many OOTP players would never go back to just playing out MLB as it exists today after getting into fictional leagues. They can be that rewarding and that enjoyable!

[Tiger Fan]

Maybe I am missing the boat on this guys, but I do not see what the big difference with points as opposed to dollars is - as long as it feels realistic. To me there is little difference between a player asking for 2 million dollars or 2 million points.

The bigger concern I have with major league license restrictions is what will happen to historical play? Will major league baseball restrict the use of things like the Lahman database (which I assume is in no way associated with MLB). That to me is the far bigger arguement over major league licensing.

If it is not an issue and the only compromise we have is points vs dollars (and we are all just speculating that any proposed MLB license will prohibt the use of dollars) I do not see what the big deal is. Let's face it. The bottom line is a game with major league licensing will sell better than one without. I am not talking about us, the hardcore crowd but more the casual fan who stumbles upon this game down the road.

The more copies OOTP-SI or whatever it is going to be called sells, the more money Markus and company make which hopefully a good portion of which is invested back into the game in terms of both time and additional talent which in turn means a better product for all of us.

[espy984]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

Maybe I am missing the boat on this guys, but I do not see what the big difference with points as opposed to dollars is - as long as it feels realistic. To me there is little difference between a player asking for 2 million dollars or 2 million points.

There isn't a big difference, so long as the points translate into dollars easily. For whatever reason people make a big fuss about the points. People refused to buy baseball mogul 2002 when they introduced points, as you all know. It takes getting use to is all.

I hate to say it but this game hardly appeals to the casual fan. I'm not as familiar with OOTP that you guys are, but I own Season Ticket Baseball and tried a demo of ootp6. Its quite daunting to a 'causal' gamer such as myself. Just so many options.

I didnt like that the trade AI was rudimentary, the scouting reports crude and formulatic, and that the headlines were poorly written and riddled with syntax errors. The program was unstable, unlike BBM which never crashes or freezes. It took me a long time to get where I wanted to go in the program, and I hated filling out four lineups and redoing them every time somebody got injured. The game was remarkably slow paced. Other than that I enjoyed it. And I'm sure the program has improved a good deal since then.

A casual gamer is not going to pay $34.95 for this game, thats for sure, especially if it doesnt have real players on the back of the box. That's not nescessarily my opinion, thats the opinion of the franchises such as EB that stock these games. Clay Dreslough (president of Sports Mogul) needed a license for his product to survive. Many stores refused to stock the game unless he had the MLBPA license.

The MLBPA does indeed prohibit use of dollars if you want a license. No speculation there. I doubt that the players association would restrict use of the Lahman database in an attempt to bully small buisnesses such as this one into obtaining a license. The lawyers that run the MLBPA might. Then again, this is all speculation upon your speculation.

Basically it boils down to this, if OOTPDev and SI want to get this game in stores and charge $35 for it, they will acquire the license, and there will be points.

[holyroller]

Originally Posted by espy984

Basically it boils down to this, if OOTPDev and SI want to get this game in stores and charge $35 for it, they will acquire the license, and there will be points.

And I won't be buying it. Ever.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by espy984

There isn't a big difference, so long as the points translate into dollars easily. For whatever reason people make a big fuss about the points. People refused to buy baseball mogul 2002 when they introduced points, as you all know. It takes getting use to is all.

I hate to say it but this game hardly appeals to the casual fan. I'm not as familiar with OOTP that you guys are, but I own Season Ticket Baseball and tried a demo of ootp6. Its quite daunting to a 'causal' gamer such as myself. Just so many options.

I didnt like that the trade AI was rudimentary, the scouting reports crude and formulatic, and that the headlines were poorly written and riddled with syntax errors. The program was unstable, unlike BBM which never crashes or freezes. It took me a long time to get where I wanted to go in the program, and I hated filling out four lineups and redoing them every time somebody got injured. The game was remarkably slow paced. Other than that I enjoyed it. And I'm sure the program has improved a good deal since then.

A casual gamer is not going to pay $34.95 for this game, thats for sure, especially if it doesnt have real players on the back of the box. That's not nescessarily my opinion, thats the opinion of the franchises such as EB that stock these games. Clay Dreslough (president of Sports Mogul) needed a license for his product to survive. Many stores refused to stock the game unless he had the MLBPA license.

The MLBPA does indeed prohibit use of dollars if you want a license. No speculation there. I doubt that the players association would restrict use of the Lahman database in an attempt to bully small buisnesses such as this one into obtaining a license. The lawyers that run the MLBPA might. Then again, this is all speculation upon your speculation.

Basically it boils down to this, if OOTPDev and SI want to get this game in stores and charge $35 for it, they will acquire the license, and there will be points.

You seem to be a pretty big baseball mogul fan. You have mentioned it in both of your posts.

I would have to disagree with you about OOTP and the casual fan. I dont think the casual fan will play a text based game no matter iif it has a mlbpa or not. As long as people continue to make roster packs, a MLBPA license is overrated.

[espy984]

I am a baseball mogul fan, but I've also played and enjoyed other baseball sims, like PureSim and OOTP, and Hardball, and High Heat 2002, worst sim of the bunch, and MVP Baseball 2004, which has a promising franchise mode. I've been playing Mogul on and off since the '99 edition, before they got an MLBPA license, and I still am even though its not licensed anymore. When I saw the Baseball Mogul game at a local EB, I squnited to see if the players names were real or not. I saw Bornie Wulliams, Paol O'Noill... good enough for me. If there werent real players, I wouldnt have bought it. If it was 35 bucks, I couldnt have bought it. And I didnt know anything about player databases, and I rarely had internet access...I was 13, and this was my first baseball sim. I guess you could call me a "casual gamer."

OOTP is going to need to be alot more user friendly for it to appeal to the casual gamer.

An MLBPA license is going to be a nescessity for this game if the idea is to attract a larger audience. EB Games and Babbages and similar stores will not stock this game without it, unless its a bargain bin item. This game will get alot more exposure if it has real players on the box. Also, these 'casual gamers' as we have so deemed them are going to recognize the players on their teams

People, whats that big deal with points? I dont understand it. This can (and will) still be a great game if it has points. What if one point equaled one dollar? Who would care? Just pretend points are dollars. Use your imagination. I think that the MLBPA license is going to be good for the game