Jason Schmidt - Page 2

Skipaway · 05-20-2004, 06:14 AM

Yeah, there is a good recent article on ESPN about this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...lan&id=1790788

Something interesting:

Quote:

Does the Braves' Leo Mazzone agree? Not exactly, evidencing how split older coaches remain toward using pitch counts at all. "I don't want to see them," says the most successful pitching coach of his generation. "My eyes are gonna tell me more than any (expletive) number."

Interestingly, the Braves are always low in pitcher abuse points. Apparently, what Leo Mazzone did by observation matches the pitch count philosophy pretty well.

darkhorse · 05-20-2004, 06:52 AM

Game length certainly contributes to pitcher fatigue but is only A factor, not THE factor.

A funny quote from Hall of Famer(well he should be) Jim Kaat.

"Somebody asked him why he worked so quickly, and he said "Because if the game goes over two hours my fastball turns into a pumpkin.""

AnotherAlias · 05-20-2004, 08:12 AM

Felipe Alou idolizes Dusty.

Anyone know what the most pitches thrown in a MLB game is?

1933 - On March 11th, a substantial earthquake rocked the Los Angeles area interrupting an exhibition game between the Chicago Cubs and New York Giants. As fans exited the grandstands amidst panic, players from both teams were forced to huddle around the center of the diamond until the tremors stopped.

The All-Star Game made its debut on July 6th 1933, at Chicago's Comiskey Park. It was initiated at the insistence of Arch Ward, a sports editor for the Chicago Tribune, to coincide with the celebration of Chicago's Century of Progress Exposition. The National League's manager John McGraw and American Leagues's Connie Mack were chosen to lead a line-up of big hitters including Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons and Babe Ruth. With fellow All-Star, Charlie Gehringer on first in the bottom of the third, Ruth drove one into the right-field stands for the first homer in All-Star history. The rest of the American Leaguers followed suite and went on to beat the Nationals in the inaugural Midsummer Classic 4-2.

On August 14th, Philadelphia Athletics slugger Jimmie Foxx hit for the cycle against the Cleveland Indians while driving in nine runs for a new American League record. Eight players amazingly would hit for the cycle during the 1933 season.

New York Yankees icon Babe Ruth returned to the mound on October 1st to pitch the final outing of his career. Adding a homerun to support his own cause, "The Bambino" finished the complete game with a 6-5 victory over his old teammates (and rivals) the Boston Red Sox.

On November 21, 1933, Chuck Klein was sold to the Cubs for $125,000 and players Mark Koenig, Harvey Hendrick, and Ted Kleinhans - thus making Klein the first and only player traded after a Triple Crown season.

darkhorse · 05-20-2004, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAlias
Felipe Alou idolizes Dusty.

Anyone know what the most pitches thrown in a MLB game is?

Most likely someone from the 19th century or deadball era. Nolan Ryan had some jaw-dropping pitch totals during the early '70s with the Angels.

SoxWin · 05-20-2004, 02:18 PM

I believe I read somewhere Ryan threw over 200 in one game. Can't remember the link for the life of me though.

Any way to check other then game by game at retrosheet?

Jason Moyer · 05-20-2004, 02:24 PM

Not just Nolan Ryan, but also Bert Blyleven, Steve Carlton, and dozens of other pitchers from around 1970-1974.

Question 1: Why is it that Ryan/Carlton/Blyleven were able to throw 300 innings a year when they were young and developing, but if someone were to do that today, we'd be waiting for their arm to blow out?

Question 2: Why is it that pitchers are removed from games early after a rain delay? I'm including situations where a game is delayed by half an hour and the starter comes back and is allowed to throw another 1-2 innings, as well as the standard 1-2 hour delays where the starter is typically pulled completely.

Jason

darkhorse · 05-20-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
Question 1: Why is it that Ryan/Carlton/Blyleven were able to throw 300 innings a year when they were young and developing, but if someone were to do that today, we'd be waiting for their arm to blow out?

Ryan was 26 and Carlton was 27 when they first crossed the 300 inning barrier. Blyleven went over only once at age 22. (Shudder)

SoxWin · 05-20-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
So you got some complete new theory that's not publicly published anywhere?

So it's just your idea then?

Skipaway · 05-20-2004, 09:17 PM

From the ESPN article:

Quote:

First, it takes far more pitches to dispense with today's hitters. Data on old-time pitch counts is hard to find, but in 1932, Baseball Magazine reported that the average nine-inning game saw about 115 pitches. Today it's in the high 150s, one-third higher than before. That means that what got you through nine innings back then now only gets you into the seventh.

Also, evidence suggests that pitchers once were able to save their strength during games by easing up on weaker hitters. Christy Mathewson, Baseball Magazine wrote in 1913, "takes things comfortably where he can, not exerting himself, once he has the game well in hand, pitching only enough to win, and using the minimum amount of strength ... Matty's system has been generally incorporated in the repertoire of almost every other progressive twirler in the game."

I just read it on baseballprospectus.com this week:

Quote:

A slow day gives me some space to discuss things I'd normally gloss over. Monday, Pirate skipper Lloyd McClendon had some interesting comments regarding Oliver Perez. In a Q&A with local press, someone quizzed him about allowing his young starter to complete two recent games. Perez went 116 and 117 pitches, hardly excessive in the right context, and showed no real problems. McClendon went a bit further in his comments, suggesting that Perez does not exert full effort in all situations. The velocity numbers I've seen--which only include one of those starts--seem to bear this out. Other pitchers, notably Livan Hernandez and Mark Prior, "coast" a bit, pitching mostly at 80-90% effort. For Hernandez, this is one clue as to how he's avoided injury despite spending the better part of a decade atop the PAP charts. If Perez--experienced beyond his years--is doing the same thing, it's possible his injury risk and workload potential is better than expected. It's just a data point, but one worth knowing. There's advantages to be gained everywhere, as Christy Mathewson has taught us.

clarnzz · 05-20-2004, 10:03 PM

There is probably more to it than just pitch counts. I just don't think I would be testing those limits with someone like Jason Schmidt, who is coming off of both shoulder and elbow problems is the best idea.

I think when you are talking about 30 million dollar arms and multi million dollar organizations it would be best to error on the side of caution.

I do think it's interesting to note that following Carltons amazing 1972 season where he threw 346 innings, he followed it up with the worst pre-decline season of his big league career.

Jonzard · 05-20-2004, 10:08 PM

I remember an article a year or so back in Sports Illustrated on pitch count debates. Anyone else remember this?

clarnzz · 05-20-2004, 10:11 PM

Here is a good point from the article Skipaway posted

Innings vs. pitches
Speaking of history, old-timers like to regale us with stories of how they threw 250 pitches on 110-degree days without a sweat. (This is the pitcher's equivalent of grandparents trekking to school in 12-foot snowdrifts and doing homework on the backs of shovels.) But were yesteryear's pitchers as hearty as they claim to be? Pitchers certainly don't throw as many innings as they once did -- none has reached 300 since Steve Carlton's 304 for the 1980 Phillies -- but innings are not quite what they once were.

First, it takes far more pitches to dispense with today's hitters. Data on old-time pitch counts is hard to find, but in 1932, Baseball Magazine reported that the average nine-inning game saw about 115 pitches. Today it's in the high 150s, one-third higher than before. That means that what got you through nine innings back then now only gets you into the seventh.

Also, evidence suggests that pitchers once were able to save their strength during games by easing up on weaker hitters. Christy Mathewson, Baseball Magazine wrote in 1913, "takes things comfortably where he can, not exerting himself, once he has the game well in hand, pitching only enough to win, and using the minimum amount of strength ... Matty's system has been generally incorporated in the repertoire of almost every other progressive twirler in the game."

As baseball has progressed through the generations, lineups have gotten more consistently strong, with fewer places to let up. Also, hitters' gradual ability to drive pitches the opposite way out of smaller ballparks has taken away the easier option of putting balls over the outside of the plate and letting the field dimensions play defense.

darkhorse · 05-20-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
I do think it's interesting to note that following Carltons amazing 1972 season where he threw 346 innings, he followed it up with the worst pre-decline season of his big league career.

Looking at Carlton's WARP season by season, he didn't have another GREAT season for five years after taxing his arm to the brink and beyond in '72.

05-20-2004, 06:52 AM	#22
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Game length certainly contributes to pitcher fatigue but is only A factor, not THE factor. A funny quote from Hall of Famer(well he should be) Jim Kaat. "Somebody asked him why he worked so quickly, and he said "Because if the game goes over two hours my fastball turns into a pumpkin."" __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

05-20-2004, 02:18 PM	#25
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	I believe I read somewhere Ryan threw over 200 in one game. Can't remember the link for the life of me though. Any way to check other then game by game at retrosheet? __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

05-20-2004, 02:24 PM	#26
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,105	Not just Nolan Ryan, but also Bert Blyleven, Steve Carlton, and dozens of other pitchers from around 1970-1974. Question 1: Why is it that Ryan/Carlton/Blyleven were able to throw 300 innings a year when they were young and developing, but if someone were to do that today, we'd be waiting for their arm to blow out? Question 2: Why is it that pitchers are removed from games early after a rain delay? I'm including situations where a game is delayed by half an hour and the starter comes back and is allowed to throw another 1-2 innings, as well as the standard 1-2 hour delays where the starter is typically pulled completely. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

05-20-2004, 10:08 PM	#31
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	I remember an article a year or so back in Sports Illustrated on pitch count debates. Anyone else remember this? __________________ For a scientist must indeed be freely imaginative and yet skeptical, creative and yet a critic. There is a sense in which he must be free, but another in which his thought must be very precisely regimented; there is poetry in science, but also a lot of bookkeeping. — Sir Peter B. Medawar FTB

05-20-2004, 08:12 AM	#23
AnotherAlias Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I'm back...for now Posts: 4,190	Felipe Alou idolizes Dusty. Anyone know what the most pitches thrown in a MLB game is? 1933 - On March 11th, a substantial earthquake rocked the Los Angeles area interrupting an exhibition game between the Chicago Cubs and New York Giants. As fans exited the grandstands amidst panic, players from both teams were forced to huddle around the center of the diamond until the tremors stopped. The All-Star Game made its debut on July 6th 1933, at Chicago's Comiskey Park. It was initiated at the insistence of Arch Ward, a sports editor for the Chicago Tribune, to coincide with the celebration of Chicago's Century of Progress Exposition. The National League's manager John McGraw and American Leagues's Connie Mack were chosen to lead a line-up of big hitters including Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons and Babe Ruth. With fellow All-Star, Charlie Gehringer on first in the bottom of the third, Ruth drove one into the right-field stands for the first homer in All-Star history. The rest of the American Leaguers followed suite and went on to beat the Nationals in the inaugural Midsummer Classic 4-2. On August 14th, Philadelphia Athletics slugger Jimmie Foxx hit for the cycle against the Cleveland Indians while driving in nine runs for a new American League record. Eight players amazingly would hit for the cycle during the 1933 season. New York Yankees icon Babe Ruth returned to the mound on October 1st to pitch the final outing of his career. Adding a homerun to support his own cause, "The Bambino" finished the complete game with a 6-5 victory over his old teammates (and rivals) the Boston Red Sox. On November 21, 1933, Chuck Klein was sold to the Cubs for $125,000 and players Mark Koenig, Harvey Hendrick, and Ted Kleinhans - thus making Klein the first and only player traded after a Triple Crown season.

05-20-2004, 10:03 PM	#30
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	There is probably more to it than just pitch counts. I just don't think I would be testing those limits with someone like Jason Schmidt, who is coming off of both shoulder and elbow problems is the best idea. I think when you are talking about 30 million dollar arms and multi million dollar organizations it would be best to error on the side of caution. I do think it's interesting to note that following Carltons amazing 1972 season where he threw 346 innings, he followed it up with the worst pre-decline season of his big league career.

05-20-2004, 10:11 PM	#32
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Here is a good point from the article Skipaway posted Innings vs. pitches Speaking of history, old-timers like to regale us with stories of how they threw 250 pitches on 110-degree days without a sweat. (This is the pitcher's equivalent of grandparents trekking to school in 12-foot snowdrifts and doing homework on the backs of shovels.) But were yesteryear's pitchers as hearty as they claim to be? Pitchers certainly don't throw as many innings as they once did -- none has reached 300 since Steve Carlton's 304 for the 1980 Phillies -- but innings are not quite what they once were. First, it takes far more pitches to dispense with today's hitters. Data on old-time pitch counts is hard to find, but in 1932, Baseball Magazine reported that the average nine-inning game saw about 115 pitches. Today it's in the high 150s, one-third higher than before. That means that what got you through nine innings back then now only gets you into the seventh. Also, evidence suggests that pitchers once were able to save their strength during games by easing up on weaker hitters. Christy Mathewson, Baseball Magazine wrote in 1913, "takes things comfortably where he can, not exerting himself, once he has the game well in hand, pitching only enough to win, and using the minimum amount of strength ... Matty's system has been generally incorporated in the repertoire of almost every other progressive twirler in the game." As baseball has progressed through the generations, lineups have gotten more consistently strong, with fewer places to let up. Also, hitters' gradual ability to drive pitches the opposite way out of smaller ballparks has taken away the easier option of putting balls over the outside of the plate and letting the field dimensions play defense.