Is there a `black QB' mentality lingering in baseball? - Page 2

Malleus Dei · 04-06-2004, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
What you have to ask yourself is, why in the world are major-league franchises establishing baseball academies in San Pedro, or Caracas, or Seoul, or Italy, instead of in Compton, Newark and East. St. Louis?

Because they don't want to have their employees shot?

Crapshoot · 04-06-2004, 05:58 PM

MLB has made a good start with the academy in Colorado I believe- I think there's further room for improvement in the inner cities, and I think baseball can bring hope.

skkrrt · 04-06-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Actually that had crossed my mind. There aren't many blacks in some particular non-baseball professions, like geology and veterinary science, and no one seems to know why this is either. The doors to those fields are certainly open to them, but they just don't seem to be walking in much.

But the next obvious question is why wouldn't a black guy want to be a pitcher or a geologist or a vet? (And is asking these questions somehow racist?)

Im also just thinking aloud....

Pitcher- Inner city folk might see this as a "white" positio, and doesn't really take in any great athletic (running, jumping ect..) tasks that they seem to excel in (Look at track and DB positions)

Catcher- who the hell wants to be catcher? And since the "ghetto" all seems to be about being a star (in sports) and catcher is a rather gloryless position I can see that as a reason (though doens't that conflict with the pitcher theory? of course the HR is #1 star quality...)

With pitcher there is also the mass amount of practice involved, which isn't AS true for 1B or OF (not saying they dont trake practice but its hardly the same amount) and if you can hit that good, why learn to pitch in an enviorment dominated by the "star".

Im not saying there are no people in the inner-city who would work at it, just less as a percentage (and less overall that play baseball). Being a pitcher and catcher are easily the 2 hardest position..... especially pitcher (which is one of the toughest in sports, the toughest IMO). You cant just have a 85 MPH heater anymore, you need to develop a 2nd pitch (unless you throw 100 MPH), which takes a lot of time and training.

Pitcher further more because of the nature of blowing out your army if you overuse it, if these kids arnt properly coached there gonna wing the ball and destroy their elbow very early.

But who really knows....

CMH · 04-06-2004, 08:00 PM

Malleus, that sort of question isn't racist. At least I don't think it is. It's pure fact and we are wondering why. That's fair.

skkrrt, I think you have some valid points.

Just look at Sportscenter. I guess I never thought about it before, but just like the slamdunk is ruining the talent level in the NBA (at least in my opinion), the homerun is ruining the pitching talent level.

Maybe that's why there's so many homeruns? Pithers just aren't that great anymore? I don't know. Just a theory - one I'm sure that can be shot down really quickly. But, like others, I'm thinking outloud.

When you play in the park, everyone wants to hit the homerun. You don't get to really do that as a pitcher. There aren't many kids that say, "My favorite players is Jason Schmidt!" They may say Pedro, or Maddux, or Randy Johnson (but their popularity is beyond). However, when you compare that to position players, kids look up to guys like Scott Brosius and Edgar Renteria - not exactly very popular players or great players (even though Renteria will soon become one, if not already).

And like you said, pitching is such a difficult position to learn. Catching is also very abusive and "boring" for kids. There's a lot of skill involved in both positions.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these Puerto Rican kids learn to be catchers because they figure it's their best way out of the island. Much like Dominicans feel that the homerun is their best way out of the island. And scouts make them feel this way.

I know I sometimes wish I learned how to be a catcher. I might have actually played Division II baseball. Think about it...the spots are so open. No one wants to play catcher.

Interesting topic.

swampdragon · 04-07-2004, 12:46 AM

Thoughts:

1. The proportion of whites in the pitching and catching positions probably isn't any higher than in the general population. It's simply that blacks are not overrepresented at those positions to the extent that we are used to seeing at the other positions and in basketball and football. Maybe the question is why the qualities that cause that overrepresentation are not an advantage at the pitching and catching positions.

2. Certainly there is a perception, usually unspoken, that whites seem to be at a disadvantage in sporting contests where speed and quickness are important qualities. In what positions in modern sports are speed and quickness less important? Basketball- none, but shooting ability is an independent skill, and height helps a lot (see Shawn Bradley and other white 7 foot centers with no speed) Centers don't need to be quite as fast, but it helps.
Football- offensive line, quarterback
Baseball- pitcher, catcher, first base

3. At what positions do you see the most white players? Is there a correlation?

CMH · 04-07-2004, 01:00 AM

I'm in no way supporting this...

But, this could be connected to the belief that:

Whites are smart players.
Blacks are great athletes.

crackpott · 04-07-2004, 04:12 AM

I remember when I coached baseball last year I only had one black kid on my team. At the beginning of the year, I asked who wanted to pitch, everyone shot up their hand except him. (He's very shy, so I don't know how much to attribute to that). Eventually after noticing how great of an arm he had I convinced him to pitch to me, and he turned out being one of the most accurate pitchers on the team. He was a nice find along the way to help our team improve. Just a little story, as I thought it related to this that one of our best pitchers happened to be black... and at the beginning of the year was the only kid who seemed to be uninterested in pitching.

ctorg · 04-07-2004, 09:34 AM

I've been under the impression that a lot of black kids just aren't as interested in baseball anymore. Basketball and football seem to be getting pushed as more "black" sports, with more stars for young black kids to look up to and emulate, while baseball has become more of a latino sport.

It's sad that black kids can't look up to white guys and white kids can't look up to black guys without being made to feel it's inappropriate. Black kids in particular are sometimes viewed as "trying to be white" if they look up to a white person.

Malleus Dei · 04-07-2004, 10:31 AM

I have always looked up to Bob Gibson, and still do. The finest Marine I ever met was dark-skinned. In neither case have I ever felt that my admiration for their achievements and level of effort was inappropriate.

If you base your admiration of others on accomplishment and effort, then what difference can color make? As Burns once put it, "A man's a man for a' that."

asamford · 04-07-2004, 11:54 AM

back to the topic of black pitchers drafted in the first round, didn't the Dodgers recently draft a black guy in the first round who was highly rated as both a hitter and pitcher, and although the Dodgers decided to have him play 1B and concentrate on his hitting, there were several teams who were looking at him as a pitcher?

skkrrt · 04-07-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by YankeePride
I'm in no way supporting this...

But, this could be connected to the belief that:

Whites are smart players.
Blacks are great athletes.

Which would support the different distribution of muscle mass theory (blacks are greater lower body, whites greater upper body. Explains why Oline has a lot of white guys...and full back)...

again, not saying its true....just its a theory.....and I see no reason to think Whites are smarter, a lot of african american players with great vision and awarness as well

...though if the whites didn' have the athleticism that is what it would be based upon them getting their, there work ethic not their natural gifts...

who knows.

04-06-2004, 05:58 PM	#22
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	MLB has made a good start with the academy in Colorado I believe- I think there's further room for improvement in the inner cities, and I think baseball can bring hope. __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

04-07-2004, 04:12 AM	#27
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	I remember when I coached baseball last year I only had one black kid on my team. At the beginning of the year, I asked who wanted to pitch, everyone shot up their hand except him. (He's very shy, so I don't know how much to attribute to that). Eventually after noticing how great of an arm he had I convinced him to pitch to me, and he turned out being one of the most accurate pitchers on the team. He was a nice find along the way to help our team improve. Just a little story, as I thought it related to this that one of our best pitchers happened to be black... and at the beginning of the year was the only kid who seemed to be uninterested in pitching. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

04-07-2004, 09:34 AM	#28
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I've been under the impression that a lot of black kids just aren't as interested in baseball anymore. Basketball and football seem to be getting pushed as more "black" sports, with more stars for young black kids to look up to and emulate, while baseball has become more of a latino sport. It's sad that black kids can't look up to white guys and white kids can't look up to black guys without being made to feel it's inappropriate. Black kids in particular are sometimes viewed as "trying to be white" if they look up to a white person. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

04-06-2004, 08:00 PM	#24
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	Malleus, that sort of question isn't racist. At least I don't think it is. It's pure fact and we are wondering why. That's fair. skkrrt, I think you have some valid points. Just look at Sportscenter. I guess I never thought about it before, but just like the slamdunk is ruining the talent level in the NBA (at least in my opinion), the homerun is ruining the pitching talent level. Maybe that's why there's so many homeruns? Pithers just aren't that great anymore? I don't know. Just a theory - one I'm sure that can be shot down really quickly. But, like others, I'm thinking outloud. When you play in the park, everyone wants to hit the homerun. You don't get to really do that as a pitcher. There aren't many kids that say, "My favorite players is Jason Schmidt!" They may say Pedro, or Maddux, or Randy Johnson (but their popularity is beyond). However, when you compare that to position players, kids look up to guys like Scott Brosius and Edgar Renteria - not exactly very popular players or great players (even though Renteria will soon become one, if not already). And like you said, pitching is such a difficult position to learn. Catching is also very abusive and "boring" for kids. There's a lot of skill involved in both positions. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these Puerto Rican kids learn to be catchers because they figure it's their best way out of the island. Much like Dominicans feel that the homerun is their best way out of the island. And scouts make them feel this way. I know I sometimes wish I learned how to be a catcher. I might have actually played Division II baseball. Think about it...the spots are so open. No one wants to play catcher. Interesting topic.

04-07-2004, 12:46 AM	#25
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Thoughts: 1. The proportion of whites in the pitching and catching positions probably isn't any higher than in the general population. It's simply that blacks are not overrepresented at those positions to the extent that we are used to seeing at the other positions and in basketball and football. Maybe the question is why the qualities that cause that overrepresentation are not an advantage at the pitching and catching positions. 2. Certainly there is a perception, usually unspoken, that whites seem to be at a disadvantage in sporting contests where speed and quickness are important qualities. In what positions in modern sports are speed and quickness less important? Basketball- none, but shooting ability is an independent skill, and height helps a lot (see Shawn Bradley and other white 7 foot centers with no speed) Centers don't need to be quite as fast, but it helps. Football- offensive line, quarterback Baseball- pitcher, catcher, first base 3. At what positions do you see the most white players? Is there a correlation?

04-07-2004, 01:00 AM	#26
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	I'm in no way supporting this... But, this could be connected to the belief that: Whites are smart players. Blacks are great athletes.

04-07-2004, 11:54 AM	#30
asamford Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Snellville, Georgia Posts: 1,769	back to the topic of black pitchers drafted in the first round, didn't the Dodgers recently draft a black guy in the first round who was highly rated as both a hitter and pitcher, and although the Dodgers decided to have him play 1B and concentrate on his hitting, there were several teams who were looking at him as a pitcher?