Barry Bond's a Cheater?

[Teflon]

It sounds like a large-scale investigation by the Feds. BALCO has had its computers and billing records seized by the IRS while the FBI has been trailing their customers' comings and goings and literally picking through BALCOs' garbage for the last year and a half. I would be VERY surprised if the allegations against Bonds' and Giambi's supplier have not already been substantiated to the point they could be trotted out in front of a grand jury for indictment.

To me the accusation and guilt of Bonds and pals aren't going to be the issues as much as whether the baseball fans will choose to care and whether MLB makes more of a gesture than merely slapping these players on the wrist - if the Players Union even allows that. My guess is that we will just shrug it off because, darn it, we love those monster homeruns and could care less if the player was completely built from cloned oxen and stem cells.

I think the biggest impact will be that we get some witty signs at the ballpark this year for Sports Center.

[TBDD]

"Where there is smoke, there is fire."

[mlyons]

Originally posted by TBDD
"Where there is smoke, there is fire."

Unless it's from a smoke machine.

[sporr]

Alright, someone out there has to do a test:

Play some major league ball without steroids then play with steroids. That way we can find out the statistical difference between the two and adjust the stats appropriately.

[mlyons]

Originally posted by sporr
Alright, someone out there has to do a test:

Play some major league ball without steroids then play with steroids. That way we can find out the statistical difference between the two and adjust the stats appropriately.

That test wouldn't work, because it would fail to take into account the effects of aging. The sample size is way too small as well. What we really need to do is to take the next three draft classes, give 1/3 of them steroids (on a random basis), 1/3 a placebo, and 1/3 nothing, and then compare their statistics after 15 years. That would really calculate the effects of steroids on the game.

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by Karros270
Kind of the same end result as the Giants huh?

Guess that depends on what you're looking for. For me, I'm happy seeing my team make the playoffs - two (or now three) 5-to-seven game series is going to be a crapshoot whoever's involved. Were the Angels really better than the Yankees in 2003? Were the 2000 Mets (who didn't even win their division) better than the 2000 Giants (who, with the White Sox, had the best record in baseball)? If you're just judging by World Series wins, you're going to be disappointed just about every season.

Oh well, I still remember the 88 World Series win, do you remember watching the last time the Giants won the World Series?

No. Congrats! It's important to keep the past alive.

[matskralc]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott


For me, I'm happy seeing my team make the playoffs

I'm happy just to see that I still have a team.

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by matskralc
I'm happy just to see that I still have a team.

Point!

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by Karros270
How so? That sounds kind of like a stock response you have to any slightly anti Giants or anti Bonds thread. Please elaborate.

ACtually, I believe you started the Anti-Giants thing- so there's a little pot.kettle.black thing going on here.

[holyroller]

I have always been first in line (well, second behind Aadik) to defend Bonds. However, I have to say that it does not look good at this point. If this report is true (and I have no idea if it is or if it isn't), then there is no conclusion other than that Bonds used steroids. However, how much do we take away from his performance based on that? 10%? 20%? 100%? My answer would be 0%. It is not a question that can be answered. Certainly it will taint him and people will always think of steroids when they think of him from now on, but he will, and should, keep his records and I will still consider him the second best player in baseball history.

Sorry for the serious response in this thread.

[Karros270]

Originally posted by Aadik
ACtually, I believe you started the Anti-Giants thing- so there's a little pot.kettle.black thing going on here.

I know I did. It was just a little friendly barb. All I was saying is your response sounds kind like it's just a stock response for any time someone says anything anti Giants. I was simply asking yo to elaborate.

[SoxWin]

Originally posted by holyroller
I have always been first in line (well, second behind Aadik) to defend Bonds. However, I have to say that it does not look good at this point. If this report is true (and I have no idea if it is or if it isn't), then there is no conclusion other than that Bonds used steroids. However, how much do we take away from his performance based on that? 10%? 20%? 100%? My answer would be 0%. It is not a question that can be answered. Certainly it will taint him and people will always think of steroids when they think of him from now on, but he will, and should, keep his records and I will still consider him the second best player in baseball history.

Sorry for the serious response in this thread.

You're kidding right?

[akw4572]

Originally posted by holyroller
I have always been first in line (well, second behind Aadik) to defend Bonds. However, I have to say that it does not look good at this point. If this report is true (and I have no idea if it is or if it isn't), then there is no conclusion other than that Bonds used steroids. However, how much do we take away from his performance based on that? 10%? 20%? 100%? My answer would be 0%. It is not a question that can be answered. Certainly it will taint him and people will always think of steroids when they think of him from now on, but he will, and should, keep his records and I will still consider him the second best player in baseball history.

Sorry for the serious response in this thread.

Bonds cheated, his records should be erased and he should be banned.

[CardinalMan]

Originally posted by holyroller
However, how much do we take away from his performance based on that? 10%? 20%? 100%? My answer would be 0%.

care to expound upon that? from the looks of it your contention is that Bonds recieved no benefit from the steroids. If that was the case why was he using them? Why would anyone use them?

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by akw4572
Bonds cheated, his records should be erased and he should be banned.

I always like reading a thoughtful, closely reasoned reply like this!

Look, if Bonds took a banned substance, then he cheated. If he took HGH, LSD, PCP, or chilled monkey brains, he didn't "cheat." Technically speaking (which, if we're talking about bannings and records erasure, we more or less have to do).

Assuming for the sake of argument that Bonds did cheat, what should we do? Shouldn't we ask how much that affected his game? If (say) Sammy Sosa were corking his bat, wouldn't we want to know how that affected his game before we decided how hard to spank him?

And, if he cheated, how did his cheating affect the game? The reason the Black Sox and Pete Rose got banned was because their acts violated the fundamental principle of the game - that everyone on the field is trying to win. Bonds shooting some gorilla pheromones or snorting powdered rhino horn or whatever doesn't threaten the integrity of the game.

AAaaand... what do we do with guys like Canseco or Ken Caminiti? Do we treat them the same as Bonds? Do we treat them differently (and if so, why?)?

AaAAAAAaaaand... assuming we conclude that Bonds, et al. are best dealt with by writing them out of the record book, what about the other people they played against? Do we take away the walks that opposing pitchers issued? The runs scored by players he drove in? If not, why not - aren't those products of his cheating, too?

It's a can of worms, and it's a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be.

[dougaiton]

I think HR's point is how can we can ignore Bonds' achievements when:

a) we don't know what affect they have
b) MLB doesn't move against them
c) we have no idea who in the history of the game has or hasn't taken them
d) we have made no attempt to qualify or edit the statistics of other cheats (Gaylord Perry) or even just dirty players (how many times did an illegal slide or spike from Cobb rub out a double-play?)
e) Amphetameanes remain the most commonly used drug, but no-one gives a **** about them (the whole of the Seattle Pilots and the NYY of the late 60s, according to Jim Bouton, used them - should their career records be expunged).

I agree with HR. Until MLB takes steps to regulate and ban these items, we can't in all fairness talk about banning him or ignoring his records considering that to me its now different to using scuffed balls, spit balls, or even infringing on the batters box. All illegal - should we be consistent, or should we go witchhunting?

I agree that steroids and amphetameanes have no place in sport. I have no idea how to quantify these affects, or to judge which player is worse than which.

[SoxWin]

Mel, do you think it's reasonable that if he cheated, the integrity of both the game and his home runs come into question?

I think at the minimum an asterik is required. I'm sick of this ****, I want to watch MLB, not a bunch of hopped up ****ers who'd do WWE "proud"

[dougaiton]

Ken Caminiti reckoned 25% of big-leaguers used steroids, and far more used uppers. This shouldn't be an inquiry focussed on those that achieved greatness - hey, Bonds is obviously doing something right to have avoided the normal career of a steroids user if that is indeed what he is (2 years of production, then muscle tears). It should be an inquiry based around to what extent the majority of major leaguers are juiced. If pitchers weren't hopped up, Bonds might have hit 100 HRs.

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by SoxWin
Mel, do you think it's reasonable that if he cheated, the integrity of both the game and his home runs come into question?

I think at the minimum an asterik is required. I'm sick of this ****, I want to watch MLB, not a bunch of hopped up ****ers who'd do WWE "proud"

No, I don't. I'm with GR on this, I think. If he used performance-enhancing drugs, he's not harming the integrity of the game - by which I mean the underlying principles without which competitive sports are (by definition) impossible - e.g. is everyone trying to win? Are the rules of the game on the field of play the same for both/all competitors/teams? Is the officiating impartial?

Assuming for the moment Bonds used him some pureed whale pituitary gland or whatever, that doesn't violate the basic principle of competition - if anything, it's taking that principle too far. His home runs are in part the result of the drugs, but also of his natural abilty - it takes skill (not enhanced by steroids, btw) to make contact with a pitched ball, and it takes other kind of ability to play the field and run the bases (neither one of which have been his strong suit in recent years, admittedly). I'm not comfortable saying "x HRs are OK, but the remaining z homers are the result of cheating, so we're not going to count those."

And there's another question: exactly how 'enhanced' was the performance? We just don't know what the effects are - if Marvin Benard was on the same diet of platypus gonads and raw oysters, it's pretty obvious that just taking the sauce doesn't make you a better ballplayer. Jason Giambi (a much better player than Marvin) is named as well; he had a lousy season last year. Dock Ellis pitched on acid: was his performance 'enhanced' because of it? If we believe "Ball Four," half of MLB was taking amphetamines - were their performances enhanced? A whole bunch of players were supposed to be huffing Colombia's finest back in the '80's - did that give them that 'extra edge'? And assuming we answer yes, what do we do - put an asterisk next to every player since the '50's who popped some pep pills or snorted some blow? If we answer no, how do we tell which drugs are 'performance enhancing' and which ones are merely 'recreational'?

The short answer is, we just don't know. What we can be pretty sure of is what took place on the field - and since that's the limit of what we can know, I'd leave the record books alone.

[Skipaway]

Other than the good points made above, I don't think a witch hunting compaign would do MLB any good. Just fix the drug test system and move on.