**** Ftg - Page 2

AnotherAlias · 02-02-2004, 09:14 AM

For a while it wasn't "too clear that the Patriots were going all the way." That became "clear" when the idiot booted the last kickoff out of bounds. Until then, it was anybody's ballgame.

KurtBevacqua · 02-02-2004, 09:14 AM

Great, great game. What gets me is no one is calling Fox on his horrible decision to go for 2. My God, even Phil Simms got that right at the time, but I'm seeing nothing in the press about it.

Geeze, if he goes for one Viniateri is kicking to send the game into OT, not win it. And how could Fox have thought with half the 4th quarter left, his defense obviously spent, and the way the first half ended that the only other score to come in the game would be a FG attempt by his team? For once (and hopefully only time) I agreed with Simms. Coaches should put that stupid conversion card away and only go for two at the end of a game when they have to do it, not there is a lot of time left and you start speculating about who gets what kind of score when.

I'm not calling sour grapes. I thought the Pats were definitely the best team, but it was such an entertaining game I really wanted OT. And I think Fox, and all the other coaches who get 2-pt happy need to be called on it.

AnotherAlias · 02-02-2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtBevacqua
Great, great game. What gets me is no one is calling Fox on his horrible decision to go for 2. My God, even Phil Simms got that right at the time, but I'm seeing nothing in the press about it.

Geeze, if he goes for one Viniateri is kicking to send the game into OT, not win it. And how could Fox have thought with half the 4th quarter left, his defense obviously spent, and the way the first half ended that the only other score to come in the game would be a FG attempt by his team? For once (and hopefully only time) I agreed with Simms. Coaches should put that stupid conversion card away and only go for two at the end of a game when they have to do it, not there is a lot of time left and you start speculating about who gets what kind of score when.

I'm not calling sour grapes. I thought the Pats were definitely the best team, but it was such an entertaining game I really wanted OT. And I think Fox, and all the other coaches who get 2-pt happy need to be called on it.

Yep! I'd be calling Fox on that, but I don't have his number.

It was a blatantly stupid call to go for 2 at that point. I agree.

congobeast · 02-02-2004, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAlias
Yep! I'd be calling Fox on that, but I don't have his number.

It was a blatantly stupid call to go for 2 at that point. I agree.

Of course, people would have been calling him a genius if it worked. {shrug} It just strikes me as a symptom of a man not comfortable with his defense's ability to hold New England.

Hindsight is always 20-20.

AnotherAlias · 02-02-2004, 09:43 AM

I wasn't hindsighting. I was using foresight when I was screaming at Fox for going for 2 at a time when he shouldn't have been.

If they had been successful, I would have said they have a rabbit's foot up their arses.

Draft Dodger · 02-02-2004, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtBevacqua
Geeze, if he goes for one Viniateri is kicking to send the game into OT, not win it.

huh? if he went for one on those two 4th quarter touchdowns they didn't convert, they would have had 31 points - Vinatieri's kick would have still won the game. to get to 32 (and force OT from a good kick), the Panthers would have needed to go for (and convert) a 2 on one of their TDs, which kind of defeats your argument that he shouldn't have gone for 2...

for the record, I wouldn't have gone for 2 either - it was too early to try to start forcing points. In this case, though, it didn't cost them the game.

the biggest coaching gaffe, btw, was Belicheck's - his squib kick at the end of the first half gave Carolina too much opportunity to get some quick yardage and score a cheap FG.

atarizx3 · 02-02-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
the biggest coaching gaffe, btw, was Belicheck's - his squib kick at the end of the first half gave Carolina too much opportunity to get some quick yardage and score a cheap FG.

coaching-wise, I thought that was a good call

execution-wise, it was a horrible line drive right-at-somebody kick

Adam's to blame on that one.

dougaiton · 02-02-2004, 10:21 AM

That play is still a good play regardless - it's giving up 25yds on the ground to Steven Davis that's inexcusable. Regardless of where they got the ball on the squib kick, they should have had one shot at points - a long heave downfield into a prevent defense. However, it was missing tackles on a bad play call that led to the points, not Adam or Belicheck IMO.

congobeast · 02-02-2004, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
the biggest coaching gaffe, btw, was Belicheck's - his squib kick at the end of the first half gave Carolina too much opportunity to get some quick yardage and score a cheap FG.

I concur. I think it's insanity to risk giving any team that kind of field position, at any point in the game. The wiser mind, I think, would kick the ball as deep to the other side of the field as you can, and make them run it back the length of the field.
Giving Carolina a short field to work with could have been a game-breaker.

dougaiton · 02-02-2004, 10:38 AM

I'd still take my chances with my A-1 defense who are playing great stopping a play from the opp 35 or 40 than I would giving the opposition two plays - the kick return and then what has to be a long throw. Basically, if you assume that Smith (who was back) would get it to at least the 25, then you are only losing 10 yards. Vinatieri, regardless of the number of good kickoffs in the game last night, isn't the best kick-off guy about, and Special Teams had been coughing up penalties on every play. I think that percentages are with the squib.

andjbock · 02-02-2004, 10:44 AM

If it wasn't for that stupid squib I would have won $100 bucks in the office pool.

Draft Dodger · 02-02-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by congobeast
I concur. I think it's insanity to risk giving any team that kind of field position, at any point in the game. The wiser mind, I think, would kick the ball as deep to the other side of the field as you can, and make them run it back the length of the field.
Giving Carolina a short field to work with could have been a game-breaker.

also worth noting that under similar circumstances at the end of the game, Belicheck kicked it deep. He should have done the same in the first half.

CMH · 02-02-2004, 11:11 AM

You guys don't understand.

None of this is relevant.

The Panthers lost when they chose to receive. I'm telling you.

Rizon · 02-02-2004, 12:33 PM

If it weren't for my horse ...

KurtBevacqua · 02-02-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
huh? if he went for one on those two 4th quarter touchdowns they didn't convert, they would have had 31 points - Vinatieri's kick would have still won the game. to get to 32 (and force OT from a good kick), the Panthers would have needed to go for (and convert) a 2 on one of their TDs, which kind of defeats your argument that he shouldn't have gone for 2...

You are forgetting the only reason NE went for their two point conversion was to put themselves up 7 instead of 6, which was directly related to the fact Carolina missed those two other conversions. Had Carolina gone for one each time they would have had 24 and I think it is very safe to say NE would not have gone for their two pointer and would have made the score 28-24 instead of 29-22. Then Carolina would score their TD to go up 31-28 (not tie it at 29) so in the end Viniateri kicks his to tie it and send it to OT. Bottom line, no way NE tries for their two pointer if Carolina hadn't missed theirs earlier.

atarizx3 · 02-02-2004, 12:54 PM

have I mentioned yet that Warren Sapp is a complete idiot?

48 pass attempts
0 sacks
1 interception

congobeast · 02-02-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atarizx3
have I mentioned yet that Warren Sapp is a complete idiot?

48 pass attempts
0 sacks
1 interception

I think this would be more like news if Sapp wasn't known for flapping his jaw. Guy makes Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman look like Cal Ripken and Lou Gehrig.

marc · 02-02-2004, 02:46 PM

Would you expect a former University of Miami football player to be anything but an idiot??

02-02-2004, 09:14 AM	#22
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	Great, great game. What gets me is no one is calling Fox on his horrible decision to go for 2. My God, even Phil Simms got that right at the time, but I'm seeing nothing in the press about it. Geeze, if he goes for one Viniateri is kicking to send the game into OT, not win it. And how could Fox have thought with half the 4th quarter left, his defense obviously spent, and the way the first half ended that the only other score to come in the game would be a FG attempt by his team? For once (and hopefully only time) I agreed with Simms. Coaches should put that stupid conversion card away and only go for two at the end of a game when they have to do it, not there is a lot of time left and you start speculating about who gets what kind of score when. I'm not calling sour grapes. I thought the Pats were definitely the best team, but it was such an entertaining game I really wanted OT. And I think Fox, and all the other coaches who get 2-pt happy need to be called on it. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

02-02-2004, 10:21 AM	#28
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	That play is still a good play regardless - it's giving up 25yds on the ground to Steven Davis that's inexcusable. Regardless of where they got the ball on the squib kick, they should have had one shot at points - a long heave downfield into a prevent defense. However, it was missing tackles on a bad play call that led to the points, not Adam or Belicheck IMO. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

02-02-2004, 10:38 AM	#30
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	I'd still take my chances with my A-1 defense who are playing great stopping a play from the opp 35 or 40 than I would giving the opposition two plays - the kick return and then what has to be a long throw. Basically, if you assume that Smith (who was back) would get it to at least the 25, then you are only losing 10 yards. Vinatieri, regardless of the number of good kickoffs in the game last night, isn't the best kick-off guy about, and Special Teams had been coughing up penalties on every play. I think that percentages are with the squib. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

02-02-2004, 12:33 PM	#34
Rizon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: SF Area, California Total Posts: 531,691 Posts: 2,370	If it weren't for my horse ... __________________ JML MILKSHAKES

02-02-2004, 12:54 PM	#36
atarizx3 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Allenstown, NH Posts: 987	have I mentioned yet that Warren Sapp is a complete idiot? 48 pass attempts 0 sacks 1 interception __________________

02-02-2004, 09:14 AM	#21
AnotherAlias Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I'm back...for now Posts: 4,190	For a while it wasn't "too clear that the Patriots were going all the way." That became "clear" when the idiot booted the last kickoff out of bounds. Until then, it was anybody's ballgame.

02-02-2004, 09:43 AM	#25
AnotherAlias Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I'm back...for now Posts: 4,190	I wasn't hindsighting. I was using foresight when I was screaming at Fox for going for 2 at a time when he shouldn't have been. If they had been successful, I would have said they have a rabbit's foot up their arses.

02-02-2004, 10:44 AM	#31
andjbock Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Somerville, MA, USA Bats: Right Throws: Left Posts: 3,640	If it wasn't for that stupid squib I would have won $100 bucks in the office pool.

02-02-2004, 11:11 AM	#33
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	You guys don't understand. None of this is relevant. The Panthers lost when they chose to receive. I'm telling you.

02-02-2004, 02:46 PM	#38
marc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,505	Would you expect a former University of Miami football player to be anything but an idiot?? __________________