November 10th: Update - Page 2

PittPanther · 11-11-2003, 06:59 AM

Phantom Punch anyone?

Cap · 11-11-2003, 02:22 PM

Yes, Liston went down from a punch, but he was very conscious and totally unwilling to get back up. Walcott, acting as ref, did a terrible job. Sonny later claimed he was afraid of the Black Muslims protecting Ali/Clay.

Ali was a great fighter, but styles, as they say, make fights. There is no way of knowing absolutely how he would have done against other legendary (and even not so legendary) fighters in their prime on a given night in an earlier era.

Cap

PittPanther · 11-11-2003, 04:32 PM

What punch?

SBoyce · 11-11-2003, 06:13 PM

Actually, there was a punch. Not what I consider a knockout or knockdown punch but he did land a punch. My guess is that Liston wanted no part of chasing Ali around again, didn't care about his career anymore, wanted an easy payday and just quit. The mob, the Muslims are all possibilities but Liston "punking out" is more likely to me.

Congrats on the Tech game Panther but get ready for a battle this Saturday night.

PittPanther · 11-11-2003, 06:22 PM

We OWE you.

Thanks for the congrats, nothing like giving those turncoats a nice kiss goodbye.

If I had my druthers, Pitt and WVU would finish 1 and 2 this year in the Big East and bounce those grubbers out the hard way.

SBoyce · 11-11-2003, 06:35 PM

Beat Miami for us and it just might happen. We had Miami beat and they wiggled off the hook. For the first time in my life I've been pulling for Pitt some this year, against BC and Tech anyway. (and I will be squarely in your corner against Miami as well) I agree, we need to send anyone to the BCS bowl other than Miami or Tech.

Football may be down the next few years unless UConn, Louisville and Cinci pick it up but B-Ball season is going to be fun.

Teraxx · 11-12-2003, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PittPanther
What punch?

I've seen the slow motion replay of the so-called 'phantom punch'-- have you? I am assuming that you haven't, but I have. Ali hit Liston with a short, inside right hand, ON THE BUTTON as they say, the point on the face where you just simply...go...down. Ali's punch was likened to an 'anchor punch' for you boxing historians out there. Now, could Liston have gotten up? Does it even matter?

As for the claim "Liston was afraid to get up", this is a guy who used to be a legbreaker before becoming a professional fighter...he wasn't afraid of anything, except Ali himself, that is. Liston honestly thought Ali was 'crazy' and admitted that is the only kind of person who EVER put fear into him.

I HIGHLY suggest some of you pick up the book "King of the World" by David Remnick, it details the Liston/Clay clashes in thorough detail.

dempsonny · 11-12-2003, 02:26 PM

Teraxx is completely correct on that point. Liston believed Ali was crazy and no longer wanted any part of him. There was a punch that connected that probably put him down but this was a shadow of the prime Liston. This was an older probably drug using Liston at the time who took an easy way out. I believe he was in his forties even though his listed age was in his thirties.

Gus

PittPanther · 11-12-2003, 07:33 PM

Yes---in fact I have seen the punch. That wasn't my point. I disagree with the idea that was presented that Ali--Clay, the man who entered that ring against Liston, as Teraxx has suggested (via experts he has heard), was the greatest fighter to step in the ring.

I think you could point to other Ali fights were his performance ws unbridled as a fighter, and they would help to make a better case for the notion that Ali is, in fact, "The Greatest."

Let's rehash that fight. As I recall, Walcott did do a lousy job, and that a ringside reporter, name escapes me---wrote for "Ring" I believe, told him that the fight should be stopped because Liston had been down for more than a ten count. So Walcott did. Kinda strange, don't you think?

Another point, in my mind, and Teraxx you will more than likely disagree, it absolutely does matter that Liston could have gotten up. It too points to something being dirty in Denmark, and is exactly why I don't think anyone should ever refer to that fight as proving Ali's greatness. Hells Bells, there were so many other fights that have, I just don't see the point to pick the one that has, and always will be mired in the controversy of "The Phantom Punch."

Clay-Liston II will always have a black mark on it. Let's face it, something wasn't right. Sorry if my verbosity, or lack thereof, was throwing you off.

PittPanther · 11-12-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dempsonny
Teraxx is completely correct on that point. Liston believed Ali was crazy and no longer wanted any part of him. There was a punch that connected that probably put him down but this was a shadow of the prime Liston. This was an older probably drug using Liston at the time who took an easy way out. I believe he was in his forties even though his listed age was in his thirties.

Gus

Again--this is an interesting point. If Liston was already sinking into heroin use, and was probably in his 40's, why would we point to this fight as being Ali's greatest performance as a fighter?

It would be tough to say were Ali's peak was, or could have been, due to the ban.

I like the idea of two separte ratings for Clay/Ali myself, but I'm in the corner that believes, like a fine wine or cognac, he got better with age.

That said, I was glad that Smokin' Joe kicked his ass when they met at MSG. Ali deserved that one.

SBoyce · 11-12-2003, 09:22 PM

There was defenitely something funny going on. Like I said, I believe Liston just had no interest in the fight or trying to win it and just quit.

You could tell at the time that Ali didn't like the way it ended either. He looked as sick as anyone that Liston didn't get up. That sounds strange but I think Ali knew he would win either way and wasn't satisfied with that ending.

11-13-2003, 12:32 AM

I never saw any clips of Liston, other than his fights against Ali and Patterson. But those four fights raise lots of questions in my mind.

First, Ali/Liston 2, the "phantom punch". There's no way Ali's punch should have knocked Liston out. Ali was not that big a hitter and Liston had a great chin. I believed it was bullsh*t at the time and I still feel the same way.

Second, Ali/Liston 1. I don't believe for a second that Liston quit because he hurt his shoulder. Was there ever any proof presented that Liston actually incurred that injury? Again, bullsh*t all the way, in my opinion.

Third, the 2 Liston/Patterson fights were also very, very questionable. Patterson was a good fighter. In every fight other than the Liston fight, Patterson constantly moved in and out, the classic boxer puncher. However, Patterson made no effort to box Liston, but simply traded punch for punch until he was KO'd. I honestly think that the fix was in for Patterson to deliberately fail to use his boxing skills and get knocked out in the first round. It's no coincidence that the KO times were almost identical.

Does anyone else see all 4 four fights as being highly, highly questionable?

swampdragon · 11-13-2003, 02:16 AM

I think most fans question the Clay-Liston II fight, and quite a few question Clay-Liston I. Liston's rep factors into that, as did a general hostility towards Clay/Ali, who wasn't exactly the universally admired figure he is today. If Liston threw the fights, fans who didn't like Ali did not have to acknowledge him as a great fighter. Of course, they were eventually proved wrong beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn't mean they were wrong about that particular fight.
I have not heard the same doubts voiced before today about the Liston-Patterson fights, and always thought Patterson had a pretty good reputation. I'll watch them more carefully if ESPN puts them on one Tuesday night.

wildhawke11 · 11-13-2003, 02:56 AM

Lets just say "the money wernt on Sonny in the Clay fights"

The Blacks did not want Liston as Champion
The Whites were **** scared of this " BIG BAD ????? "
and odds of 7 to 1 look pretty good odds to me for a bet.

Liston at one stage was considered by some as better then his hero Joe Louis. Great chin, the most powerful left jab in history. no one could stand and trade with the monster.

George Foreman one time sparred with an old Sonny Liston and stated even at that late stage his power was something to behold. Big George said he was the only man who ever backed me up in the ring.

If only Liston had had the right backing, better managed, who knows, maybe he would be regarded as at least number 3 in the all time Top Ten Heavyweights.

The big problem with Liston was he was a very simple uneducated man, who trusted very few and was a loner. Liked the life which he found money could give him and did not care if it came from boxing or any other way.

Did Liston throw the fights, well the right way to do a fix is to only tell the guy who will lose. That way its not so obvious in most cases. Problem of course with Sonny, at least i feel, he was a far better fighter then he was an actor.
He was an old man when he fought Clay, might have been a different story if the old guy had been a little younger.

Did Sonny or rather would Sonny fight with the cuffs on
Who knows? but being controlled by the Mob you don't say No if told. Who cares if a former thug and One Bad Ass ????? is found face down in the gutter one day,

To my way of thinking boxing unfortunately always has been a business first and a sport second and that in different ways still applies to this day.

Please my boxing friends forgive me for some of the expressions that i have used here but that's how it was back in there time and mine too i might add.

erickdamac · 11-13-2003, 06:52 AM

All of you make great points, (Including you wild) But me bein a Ali fan i think no one can beat him. lol, but im goin to step away from that and be a BOXING fan.

Ali-liston 1, Lets face this fight was suppose to be a easy fight, liston was not OLD, i mean sure he was 32 but he just came off some of his most imprissve victories, You had this loud talking black man vs, this soft spokin sort of ******ed who blacks didn't thinl represented them well, Young ali came along he was this man talking to people while rolling in his bus telling people that liston is dumb and he is a bum and all of this, Most writters said liston will beat this guy, I believe some people at the time (Not that i live doing that time) Had liston greater then jack johnson, My Gran-uncle had this article or megazine about a fight vs, johnson.

I remember reading it like 6 years ago it had the fight starting out with johnson jumping forward with his 6ft leap then quickly jumping backward with his 6ft leap, LOL When i read it i didn't know what they was saying but now i do. And then in the 6 liston gets mad after jack jumped back again and just start running towards him hit him with a jab that wobble johnson, then he hit him with a 1 to down go johnson and then, they said liston did that til the 14 round when johnson corner decides he had enough. After that i realized how big liston was at the time he was like a god to boxing people thought no one could beat him, NO ONE. I mean the book mad his jab seem like it could break through a steal wall, Even if he punched it underwater.

So when ali beated liston thats why he said he is the greatest because people didn't think he could be defeated. Then i understood why it was such a big thing i always thought lisdton was a ok fighter who was strong never knew people looked at him like that. The first fight was pure legit liston tried, ali SHOWED his heart by fighting through the eye burning pain and liston quit because of a shouldeR? That really made him look bad, Ali jus put a whoopin on him. Pit i have to disagree with you the ali who stepped in the ring might have been the fastest ali, but he wasn't the best, or the quickest, he might had the deffence but he wasn't as better as Ali.

Ali-liston 2, This fight is known for the unknown, Well i watch espn classics ever tuesday (Boxing classics) and they went over liston career like 3 weeks ago and he had so they went over his life on sportcentury, And his wife said she dont think he threw the fight because when she asked him he said no, BUT a man who wrote a book on him and talked to him 4weeks before his death said when he asked him he said ok Liston tell me did u throw the damn fight? And he said liston said hey he hit me with a good punch and he hit my timp, I was alittle off balance head was low and i feel and then i said hell he is crazy why should i get up. People can say what they want about this fight, the point is that if he gave up thats not ali fault. Ali beat him the first time, Liston took a dive he took a dive, Ali trainer said the best punch and the punch that heart you the most is the one you dont see, And if u look at it (You can get the punch from kazaa) You will see it in slow motion its a punch that him him right on the timp. Do i think it knocked him out nooooo.

Just thought to throw in my two cents, And IMO The ali from 1973-1976 is the best ali. But hey we never know what could of been the best cuz he was out of boxing 3years.

dempsonny · 11-13-2003, 10:13 AM

Eric,
Liston was probably about 36 or 37 in the first fight. His age was about 4 or 5 yrs off.

Gus

SBoyce · 11-13-2003, 11:17 AM

Patterson was a good fighter with little chin, Johansson showed us that. Ingmar also showed that Patterson had a tendency to slug when in with a slugger. I think the Patterson fights were legit.

Liston-Ali II was definitely fishy for whatever reason. We can speculate all day, I think he just quit, some say the mob others the muslims. I won't argue against any of the reasons, they're all very possible.

Liston-Ali I is a different story. Ali outclassed Liston from the very begining. Even if the odds are long the mob would make more money off of controlling the champion than one bet. IF Liston was throwing the fight, why did they use an illegal substance to blind Ali and then go after him all out until Ali's vision cleared. Strange move for someone throwing a fight. I think the shoulder injury was an excuse, his face while in the corner showed the real reason he quit. He was tired, beat up and had little hope of beating Ali. Maybe in his younger days but not that night.

erickdamac · 11-13-2003, 10:26 PM

Dempsonny even if sonny was 36, Yhe fact is He didn't show no signs of age in his last fight, he looked more unstopable then ever, Age dont always mean somethin look at walcot he got better with age so did, Moore and other fighters.

11-11-2003, 06:59 AM	#21
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Phantom Punch anyone? __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

11-11-2003, 02:22 PM	#22
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,969	Yes, Liston went down from a punch, but he was very conscious and totally unwilling to get back up. Walcott, acting as ref, did a terrible job. Sonny later claimed he was afraid of the Black Muslims protecting Ali/Clay. Ali was a great fighter, but styles, as they say, make fights. There is no way of knowing absolutely how he would have done against other legendary (and even not so legendary) fighters in their prime on a given night in an earlier era. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

11-11-2003, 04:32 PM	#23
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	What punch? __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

11-11-2003, 06:22 PM	#25
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	We OWE you. Thanks for the congrats, nothing like giving those turncoats a nice kiss goodbye. If I had my druthers, Pitt and WVU would finish 1 and 2 this year in the Big East and bounce those grubbers out the hard way. __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

11-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#28
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Teraxx is completely correct on that point. Liston believed Ali was crazy and no longer wanted any part of him. There was a punch that connected that probably put him down but this was a shadow of the prime Liston. This was an older probably drug using Liston at the time who took an easy way out. I believe he was in his forties even though his listed age was in his thirties. Gus __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

11-11-2003, 06:13 PM	#24
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	Actually, there was a punch. Not what I consider a knockout or knockdown punch but he did land a punch. My guess is that Liston wanted no part of chasing Ali around again, didn't care about his career anymore, wanted an easy payday and just quit. The mob, the Muslims are all possibilities but Liston "punking out" is more likely to me. Congrats on the Tech game Panther but get ready for a battle this Saturday night.

11-11-2003, 06:35 PM	#26
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	Beat Miami for us and it just might happen. We had Miami beat and they wiggled off the hook. For the first time in my life I've been pulling for Pitt some this year, against BC and Tech anyway. (and I will be squarely in your corner against Miami as well) I agree, we need to send anyone to the BCS bowl other than Miami or Tech. Football may be down the next few years unless UConn, Louisville and Cinci pick it up but B-Ball season is going to be fun.

11-12-2003, 07:33 PM	#29
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Yes---in fact I have seen the punch. That wasn't my point. I disagree with the idea that was presented that Ali--Clay, the man who entered that ring against Liston, as Teraxx has suggested (via experts he has heard), was the greatest fighter to step in the ring. I think you could point to other Ali fights were his performance ws unbridled as a fighter, and they would help to make a better case for the notion that Ali is, in fact, "The Greatest." Let's rehash that fight. As I recall, Walcott did do a lousy job, and that a ringside reporter, name escapes me---wrote for "Ring" I believe, told him that the fight should be stopped because Liston had been down for more than a ten count. So Walcott did. Kinda strange, don't you think? Another point, in my mind, and Teraxx you will more than likely disagree, it absolutely does matter that Liston could have gotten up. It too points to something being dirty in Denmark, and is exactly why I don't think anyone should ever refer to that fight as proving Ali's greatness. Hells Bells, there were so many other fights that have, I just don't see the point to pick the one that has, and always will be mired in the controversy of "The Phantom Punch." Clay-Liston II will always have a black mark on it. Let's face it, something wasn't right. Sorry if my verbosity, or lack thereof, was throwing you off. __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

11-12-2003, 09:22 PM	#31
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	There was defenitely something funny going on. Like I said, I believe Liston just had no interest in the fight or trying to win it and just quit. You could tell at the time that Ali didn't like the way it ended either. He looked as sick as anyone that Liston didn't get up. That sounds strange but I think Ali knew he would win either way and wasn't satisfied with that ending.

11-13-2003, 12:32 AM	#32
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	I never saw any clips of Liston, other than his fights against Ali and Patterson. But those four fights raise lots of questions in my mind. First, Ali/Liston 2, the "phantom punch". There's no way Ali's punch should have knocked Liston out. Ali was not that big a hitter and Liston had a great chin. I believed it was bullsht at the time and I still feel the same way. Second, Ali/Liston 1. I don't believe for a second that Liston quit because he hurt his shoulder. Was there ever any proof presented that Liston actually incurred that injury? Again, bullsht all the way, in my opinion. Third, the 2 Liston/Patterson fights were also very, very questionable. Patterson was a good fighter. In every fight other than the Liston fight, Patterson constantly moved in and out, the classic boxer puncher. However, Patterson made no effort to box Liston, but simply traded punch for punch until he was KO'd. I honestly think that the fix was in for Patterson to deliberately fail to use his boxing skills and get knocked out in the first round. It's no coincidence that the KO times were almost identical. Does anyone else see all 4 four fights as being highly, highly questionable? Last edited by 60'sfan; 11-13-2003 at 01:38 AM.

11-13-2003, 02:16 AM	#33
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	I think most fans question the Clay-Liston II fight, and quite a few question Clay-Liston I. Liston's rep factors into that, as did a general hostility towards Clay/Ali, who wasn't exactly the universally admired figure he is today. If Liston threw the fights, fans who didn't like Ali did not have to acknowledge him as a great fighter. Of course, they were eventually proved wrong beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn't mean they were wrong about that particular fight. I have not heard the same doubts voiced before today about the Liston-Patterson fights, and always thought Patterson had a pretty good reputation. I'll watch them more carefully if ESPN puts them on one Tuesday night.

11-13-2003, 02:56 AM	#34
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Lets just say "the money wernt on Sonny in the Clay fights" The Blacks did not want Liston as Champion The Whites were **** scared of this " BIG BAD ????? " and odds of 7 to 1 look pretty good odds to me for a bet. Liston at one stage was considered by some as better then his hero Joe Louis. Great chin, the most powerful left jab in history. no one could stand and trade with the monster. George Foreman one time sparred with an old Sonny Liston and stated even at that late stage his power was something to behold. Big George said he was the only man who ever backed me up in the ring. If only Liston had had the right backing, better managed, who knows, maybe he would be regarded as at least number 3 in the all time Top Ten Heavyweights. The big problem with Liston was he was a very simple uneducated man, who trusted very few and was a loner. Liked the life which he found money could give him and did not care if it came from boxing or any other way. Did Liston throw the fights, well the right way to do a fix is to only tell the guy who will lose. That way its not so obvious in most cases. Problem of course with Sonny, at least i feel, he was a far better fighter then he was an actor. He was an old man when he fought Clay, might have been a different story if the old guy had been a little younger. Did Sonny or rather would Sonny fight with the cuffs on Who knows? but being controlled by the Mob you don't say No if told. Who cares if a former thug and One Bad Ass ????? is found face down in the gutter one day, To my way of thinking boxing unfortunately always has been a business first and a sport second and that in different ways still applies to this day. Please my boxing friends forgive me for some of the expressions that i have used here but that's how it was back in there time and mine too i might add. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

11-13-2003, 06:52 AM	#35
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	All of you make great points, (Including you wild) But me bein a Ali fan i think no one can beat him. lol, but im goin to step away from that and be a BOXING fan. Ali-liston 1, Lets face this fight was suppose to be a easy fight, liston was not OLD, i mean sure he was 32 but he just came off some of his most imprissve victories, You had this loud talking black man vs, this soft spokin sort of ******ed who blacks didn't thinl represented them well, Young ali came along he was this man talking to people while rolling in his bus telling people that liston is dumb and he is a bum and all of this, Most writters said liston will beat this guy, I believe some people at the time (Not that i live doing that time) Had liston greater then jack johnson, My Gran-uncle had this article or megazine about a fight vs, johnson. I remember reading it like 6 years ago it had the fight starting out with johnson jumping forward with his 6ft leap then quickly jumping backward with his 6ft leap, LOL When i read it i didn't know what they was saying but now i do. And then in the 6 liston gets mad after jack jumped back again and just start running towards him hit him with a jab that wobble johnson, then he hit him with a 1 to down go johnson and then, they said liston did that til the 14 round when johnson corner decides he had enough. After that i realized how big liston was at the time he was like a god to boxing people thought no one could beat him, NO ONE. I mean the book mad his jab seem like it could break through a steal wall, Even if he punched it underwater. So when ali beated liston thats why he said he is the greatest because people didn't think he could be defeated. Then i understood why it was such a big thing i always thought lisdton was a ok fighter who was strong never knew people looked at him like that. The first fight was pure legit liston tried, ali SHOWED his heart by fighting through the eye burning pain and liston quit because of a shouldeR? That really made him look bad, Ali jus put a whoopin on him. Pit i have to disagree with you the ali who stepped in the ring might have been the fastest ali, but he wasn't the best, or the quickest, he might had the deffence but he wasn't as better as Ali. Ali-liston 2, This fight is known for the unknown, Well i watch espn classics ever tuesday (Boxing classics) and they went over liston career like 3 weeks ago and he had so they went over his life on sportcentury, And his wife said she dont think he threw the fight because when she asked him he said no, BUT a man who wrote a book on him and talked to him 4weeks before his death said when he asked him he said ok Liston tell me did u throw the damn fight? And he said liston said hey he hit me with a good punch and he hit my timp, I was alittle off balance head was low and i feel and then i said hell he is crazy why should i get up. People can say what they want about this fight, the point is that if he gave up thats not ali fault. Ali beat him the first time, Liston took a dive he took a dive, Ali trainer said the best punch and the punch that heart you the most is the one you dont see, And if u look at it (You can get the punch from kazaa) You will see it in slow motion its a punch that him him right on the timp. Do i think it knocked him out nooooo. Just thought to throw in my two cents, And IMO The ali from 1973-1976 is the best ali. But hey we never know what could of been the best cuz he was out of boxing 3years.

11-13-2003, 10:13 AM	#36
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Eric, Liston was probably about 36 or 37 in the first fight. His age was about 4 or 5 yrs off. Gus __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

11-13-2003, 11:17 AM	#37
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	Patterson was a good fighter with little chin, Johansson showed us that. Ingmar also showed that Patterson had a tendency to slug when in with a slugger. I think the Patterson fights were legit. Liston-Ali II was definitely fishy for whatever reason. We can speculate all day, I think he just quit, some say the mob others the muslims. I won't argue against any of the reasons, they're all very possible. Liston-Ali I is a different story. Ali outclassed Liston from the very begining. Even if the odds are long the mob would make more money off of controlling the champion than one bet. IF Liston was throwing the fight, why did they use an illegal substance to blind Ali and then go after him all out until Ali's vision cleared. Strange move for someone throwing a fight. I think the shoulder injury was an excuse, his face while in the corner showed the real reason he quit. He was tired, beat up and had little hope of beating Ali. Maybe in his younger days but not that night.

11-13-2003, 10:26 PM	#38
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Dempsonny even if sonny was 36, Yhe fact is He didn't show no signs of age in his last fight, he looked more unstopable then ever, Age dont always mean somethin look at walcot he got better with age so did, Moore and other fighters.