Will we ever get real pitcher fatigue incorporated??

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by findinghomer

Those overall ratings were annoying too because you were either red or you were green there was no yellow . Thank God they fix that .Think this needs to be focused on now

Originally Posted by findinghomer

He's 100 after 4 days of rest after throwing 4 pitches on his 1st day !!! come on dude use real Game situations .I already explained it above. Wasting my time and your cluttering up this thread . I'm hoping the developer can see it and possibly fix it.

You would see if you would read instead of trying your best to be right about something , what I'm trying to accomplish. What more do i want? Stamina should not be a set generic schedule.... it should be based on the pitcher's stamina and the pitcher's thrown. should be able to start a pitcher have him throw 50 pitches and him be at 30 or 40 percent the next day ( Whatever his ratings to pitch thrown would allow ) . Then maybe another pitcher throws 70 pitches and his stamina is on 28%... Not just an automatic single digit fatigue level just because he pitched that day .

Just did a REAL test. I went through every single pitching rotation in my league... 28 out of 30 were at exactly 4% after pitching yesterday. Only 2 pitchers were different , and they were at 3% they were also both yellow in stamina. Probably the same with the couple anomalies you encountered. So people with yellow stamina do affect their fatigue but not much at all only by 1.. But that doesn't explain why there's no variety of fatigue. why is there nobody with 11% or 9 percent , or even 6 % guys with higher stamina should have less fatigue. There's no variety . We should be able to manage our rotation fatigue based on how much we use them , not on a strict coded universal scheduled layout.

So. My point remains.

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by findinghomer

Just did a REAL test. I went through every single pitching rotation in my league... 28 out of 30 were at exactly 4% after pitching yesterday. Only 2 pitchers were different , and they were at 3% they were also both yellow in stamina. Probably the same with the couple anomalies you encountered. So people with yellow stamina do affect their fatigue but not much at all only by 1.. But that doesn't explain why there's no variety of fatigue. why is there nobody with 11% or 9 percent , or even 6 % guys with higher stamina should have less fatigue. There's no variety . We should be able to manage our rotation fatigue based on how much we use them , not on a strict coded universal scheduled layout.

So. My point remains.

Yes, if your point is most pitchers are 4% rested after starting the previous day, you are correct. I did what you did, simmed a day, and checked all pitchers, and only 1 pitcher wasn't at 4%. Most guys threw 70+ pitches, so this makes sense to some degree. Variation may be better, but that is just at the 1 day point

Things started to change as days advanced. I got 8, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 at the 2 day point. This seems to be a modern day issue, not a fatigue as a whole issue. It seems like you are almost guaranteed in a modern setup to have a guy be 4% rested after 1 day.

So next is testing a different year. I picked 1997, which has "default" for hook SP, "low" for stamina, and "1.048" for SP stamina. Here after 1 day, most were 4%, and after 2 it had a similar range.

Next up, 1977, which has default, normal, and 1.000. Here I got more of a mix, with 2s, 3s, 4s, even a 14 since a guy went only 63 pitches, and a 16 at 59. It does seem like if a guy "empties the tank" he gets capped at 4% fatigue. As I progressed, the single digits were between 14 and 21, with the two higher rested guys at 35 and 36. Sticking with those two, it went to 63 and 64 at 3, and both got to 100% at 4. The highest a single digit guy got to by day 4 was 71, and another got to 70. Both threw 109 pitches at the same stadium. There was another 70 elsewhere with just 96 pitches, and a third with 142

Interestingly, one team decided to pitch one of the 60% on short rest. He threw 99 pitches first, then 100 on 4 days rest. He was a 2%. Another short rest went 116 then 92, he was a 3%. There was a 137 to 74, he was 3%. 110 to 110, 2%. 96 to 101, 2%. 139 to 102, 1%. 115 to 90, 2%. 119 to 131, 2%. 135 to 68, 2%. But all guys with 4 full days of rest, were up to 100% on the 5th day.

So there is a sweet spot, and some differential, but I understand why you would want to see something different. There is room for improvement, but there is some variability. It's easier to see in past years, and I'm sure there's a ton in the 1940s and before.

[Rain King]

Starting Pitchers and Relief Pitchers have different routines. The game is meaning to emulate that. I don't disagree it could be improved, but sometimes things also need to work a certain way to avoid abuse/loopholes.

If you use an "Opener", though, that pitcher will prepare and recover like a relief pitcher and potentially be able to pitch the next day.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Starting Pitchers and Relief Pitchers have different routines. The game is meaning to emulate that. I don't disagree it could be improved, but sometimes things also need to work a certain way to avoid abuse/loopholes.

If you use an "Opener", though, that pitcher will prepare and recover like a relief pitcher and potentially be able to pitch the next day.

The Follower won't, though.

If I tell Ryan Yarbrough on game-day that he's going to be a Follower(tm) today and he goes out and throws 45 pitches over 3 innings, he's out of commission for 4 full days before he can pitch again. If instead I tell Ryan Yarbrough on game-day that he's going to be a Stopper(tm) and he goes out and throws 45 pitches over 3 innings, he'll be good to go in a day or two.

I agree with the OP that pitcher fatigue has been a pet peeve of mine for a while, since it feels like OOTP prevents you from using realistic pitching strategies if they don't fit into the tidy box. (The fact that Daily Lineups and Openers can't coexist is another related peeve of mine).

[Rain King]

Right, but the Follower prepared like a starter for the game which is why they are treated like a starter by the fatigue system.

I don't disagree that an update is needed. Particularly now that Bullpen games have become more and more popular.

I also think there should be some risk/transition associated with moving a guy from the bullpen to a starting roll, which doesn't exist currently.

I do think, however, that if a player "prepares" for a game as a starting (or bulk inning) pitcher they should have different recovery parameters than a reliever even if they end up having a very short outing.

[Garlon]

The rotation mode and pitcher stamina strategy settings both influence these things.

As Rain King said, the game also has to be set up to prevent exploits. Otherwise, what is being discussed here could result in a team having 9 pitchers all pitch 1 inning per game and appear in 162 games. This would be nonsense.

Rain King is also right about a pitcher preparing for a start. The pitcher does not just walk out onto the field and start throwing. They are even warming up when lineups are announced.

How often do relievers pitch three days in a row in real MLB? They only need to come in to pitch to 3 batters. However, they are giving max effort on every pitch, and they need to recover too.

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Right, but the Follower prepared like a starter for the game which is why they are treated like a starter by the fatigue system.

I do think, however, that if a player "prepares" for a game as a starting (or bulk inning) pitcher they should have different recovery parameters than a reliever even if they end up having a very short outing.

Yeah this is the thing that I think OOTP tries to model. Yarborough would pitch more to get ready for a start (or follow) then he would for a pen outing. I imagine that mimics real life.

Originally Posted by MathBandit

If I tell Ryan Yarbrough on game-day that he's going to be a Follower(tm) today and he goes out and throws 45 pitches over 3 innings, he's out of commission for 4 full days before he can pitch again. If instead I tell Ryan Yarbrough on game-day that he's going to be a Stopper(tm) and he goes out and throws 45 pitches over 3 innings, he'll be good to go in a day or two.

It will take more then a day or two, but I do think the difference in SP/RP is too large. But I'm not sure there's a better way that can still apply to different pitching environments. Also, since RP/SP stamina is calculating differently, if Yarborough starts/follows for 45 pitches, he'd take 4 full days to start again. But probably 3 days to get out of the "yellow" if you want to use him as a RP again

I think that's the tough part, because I get arguments both ways why it should or shouldn't function that way.

Originally Posted by MathBandit

The fact that Daily Lineups and Openers can't coexist is another related peeve of mine.

Curious on this part though. I'm not sure that's the case, unless you mean you can't pick which opener to open on a specific day.

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Curious on this part though. I'm not sure that's the case, unless you mean you can't pick which opener to open on a specific day.

Just tested it and I get what you mean. If you pick the follower, it starts the follower. If you pick the opener, it starts the opener. But then it doesn't go to the follower. This is worth submitting a bug ticket unless you already have.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Garlon

The rotation mode and pitcher stamina strategy settings both influence these things.

To my knowledge though, those are leaguewide. They don't help if you are trying to be innovative within the league.

Originally Posted by Garlon

As Rain King said, the game also has to be set up to prevent exploits. Otherwise, what is being discussed here could result in a team having 9 pitchers all pitch 1 inning per game and appear in 162 games. This would be nonsense.

This just isn't true, unless you could currently have a reliever pitch 1 inning per game for 162 games.

Originally Posted by Garlon

Rain King is also right about a pitcher preparing for a start. The pitcher does not just walk out onto the field and start throwing. They are even warming up when lineups are announced.

For a traditional 'Starter', maybe. I don't think there's a rule that one pitcher per game has to be warming up during the lineup announcement, though. Again, if Yarborough can throw 3 innings (with reasonable pitchcount) in Relief and not be out of commission for 4 full days, I don't see why he can't do the same thing if you call him a Follower instead. Starter, Reliever, Opener, and Follower are all just made-up words that don't/shouldn't actually mean anything, in my mind. They're pitchers.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Yeah this is the thing that I think OOTP tries to model. Yarborough would pitch more to get ready for a start (or follow) then he would for a pen outing. I imagine that mimics real life.

This is the part I don't agree with. It's a (flawed) assumption that he would prep more for a 'Follow' than for a 'Relief' outing, based on the incorrect logic that he will pitch differently and/or longer as a 'Follower' than as a 'Reliever'. After all, it's not like the game lets me get a +5 Stuff/Movement bump on my 'Starters'/'Followers' if I put a hard cap on their pitches/batters faced, so that they know before they step on the mound that it's not like they'll be throwing anywhere near 100 pitches.

[Garlon]

What would prevent a team from putting like 10 SP on their roster than and have them each pitch one inning per game from 162 games then?

OOTP accounts for this with the way it is designed so that you do not end up with ridiculous exploits and unrealistic usage.

The game is highly accurate when it comes to pitcher usage.

For example, in a historical league I created yesterday from 1871-2023 Greg Maddux averaged 6.95 IP per vs his real historical value of 6.8 IP per GS. This ends up being accurate to within about 0.5 batters faced per game. His OOTP HR/9, BB/9 and K/9 were all exact matches to his historical rates at 0.6/1.8/6.1

In the same league, Mariano Rivera averaged 3.3 Outs Per Relief Appearance, the exact same as historical rate. He also pitched 1122 games in relief compared to his real value of 1105.


This stuff is calibrated properly so that you get highly accurate and realistic results.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Garlon

What would prevent a team from putting like 10 SP on their roster than and have them each pitch one inning per game from 162 games then?

Again, I assume the current fatigue model doesn't allow any pitcher to throw in 162 games in a season?

Originally Posted by Garlon

The game is highly accurate when it comes to pitcher usage.

For example, in a historical league I created yesterday from 1871-2023 Greg Maddux averaged 6.95 IP per vs his real historical value of 6.8 IP per GS. This ends up being accurate to within about 0.5 batters faced per game.

In the same league, Mariano Rivera averaged 3.3 Outs Per Relief Appearance, the exact same as historical rate. He also pitched 1122 games in relief compared to his real value of 1105.


This stuff is calibrated properly so that you get highly accurate and realistic results.

Right, but 'highly accurate and realistic' results (in the sense of 'historical recreation') is great but might not be what one individual manager/GM wants for their team. Historical recreations are just a small part of what OOTP does, after all.

---

edit:

What if I want Maddux throwing 4-5 IP every 4 days instead of 6.95 IP every 5 days? What if I want Rivera throwing ~110 IP/year instead of being comically misused and wasted as a 60-70 IP guy?

[Garlon]

I agree the fatigue model prevents pitchers from being overused and that is why it is good and makes sense and any changes to how it is modeled would have detrimental effects to the entire league.

If you want Maddux to pitch every 4 days then use a 4-man rotation. You can bring Maddux in to pitch every 4th day even with a 5-man rotation, but he will not be fully rested, which is the point of the rotation setting in the game.

Mariano Rivera was a great as he was because he was not used 100 games per season. He was not underused; he was optimally used so that he would not get worn out and injured.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Garlon

I agree the fatigue model prevents pitchers from being overused and that is why it is good and makes sense and any changes to how it is modeled would have detrimental effects to the entire league.

Please don't say you agree when it's clear that you don't. Especially if you're going to put words in my mouth and imply I want to overuse pitchers when in most cases I want to use them less than they currently are.

Originally Posted by Garlon

If you want Maddux to pitch every 4 days then use a 4-man rotation. You can bring Maddux in to pitch every 4th day even with a 5-man rotation, but he will not be fully rested, which is the point of the rotation setting in the game.

That setting does not exist on a team level. I very literally *cannot* do that.

Originally Posted by Garlon

Mariano Rivera was a great as he was because he was not used 100 games per season. He was not underused; he was optimally used so that he would not get worn out and injured.

Well, I guess it's just a crazy coincidence that his best season out of 18 relief seasons (in both WAR and WPA) just so happens to be the one year he wasn't obscenely wasted as a 'Closer' and was allowed to actually pitch when the game was on the line instead of being locked in a cage that doesn't open until the start of the 9th inning.

[ayaghmour2]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

This is the part I don't agree with. It's a (flawed) assumption that he would prep more for a 'Follow' than for a 'Relief' outing, based on the incorrect logic that he will pitch differently and/or longer as a 'Follower' than as a 'Reliever'. After all, it's not like the game lets me get a +5 Stuff/Movement bump on my 'Starters'/'Followers' if I put a hard cap on their pitches/batters faced, so that they know before they step on the mound that it's not like they'll be throwing anywhere near 100 pitches.

But we do know in real life this is the case. Pitchers prep differently to follow as opposed to regular long relief. If I remember correctly, the Jays did an interview with him this year explaining it. Don't forget, when pitchers follow an opener, they know ahead of time if the goal is for them to pitch an inning (bullpen game) or pitch as much as they can (traditional follow). I think his words were more or less "when I know I come in early, I warm up the exact same way that I do when I used to start. But with long relief, you know you have to get up quicker, and if all goes well you're not going to get much more the 3 innings." If you're interested I can try to find it

I think you're stuck on the longer part. No starter preps for pitching only 50 innings. No reliever preps for 50 pitches, but sometimes it happens. Plus I've seen followers throw 70+ pitches. There's games the follower will pitch deeper in then the traditional starter they face

What I don't get is this:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

That setting does not exist on a team level. I very literally *cannot* do that.

Are you staying you can't set a 4-man rotation? Or the pitch every 4th day on a 5 man rotation? In this latter case, I think he's just saying you can force Maddux to pitch on the 4th day. Or set up daily lineups so he is on the mound every 4th day.

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Well, I guess it's just a crazy coincidence that his best season out of 18 relief seasons (in both WAR and WPA) just so happens to be the one year he wasn't obscenely wasted as a 'Closer' and was allowed to actually pitch when the game was on the line instead of being locked in a cage that doesn't open until the start of the 9th inning.

Also Rivera, if you're talking '96, he has the most WAR and WPA because he threw the most innings. Both are counting stats. In terms of WAR/IP his best year would be '08 followed by '09, '04, and '06. '96 is actually 11th

For WPA/IP its '98, '08, and '04. '96 is 8th.

[Matt Arnold]

Keep in mind, you can pitch guys at less than 100%. 100% for a SP really means "is fully rested and ready to pitch a full starter's game". You can pitch a guy at 65% fatigue if you want to limit them to like 50-60 pitches. If you want, you can run a 4-man rotation where each guy only goes like 4-5 innings a game. Just because a guy is pitching on "60%" rest it doesn't actually mean they're only 60% effective, and will be running you an ERA in the 5s. Are they going to pitch as well as if they threw 100 pitches every 5 days? I'd guess probably not.

If you change guys around between SP and RP, you can see what fatigue levels they show. If you have someone who only threw 10-15 pitches a few days ago, sure, as a SP, he'll be listed at like 35%, but as a reliever he'd be 85-90% rested. That means you could run him out there for a bullpen session and he'd be fine, but he's not going to give you a starter's workload.

I think the big reason people seem confused is that, at a fundamental level, SP and RP "fatigue %" values can mean very different things. If a reliever is at 60%, it means he's probably not lasting more than like 3 batters before he gets tired, and I wouldn't bring someone like that in other than like a LOOGY just trying to get out of a jam. But a SP at 60% could actually probably still give you 3-4 innings if you needed it. But the current fatigue model does want to push pitchers to get their full rest in to fully be considered as 100% rested.

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Okay we're almost on the same page. But you made a ton of assumptions. I wasn't trying to dismiss everything you said, just the absolutes. It's really the always 100% after 5 days part I have an issue with, because objectively, that's not the case

Me admitting that fatigue isn't perfect right off the bat:



I never said fatigue wasn't flawed, just parts of what you were saying.

Also, relievers have their stamina calculated different then starters. You can actually see it on the page if you list a guy in your pen as an SP or a guy in your rotation as a RP/CL:

Attachment 1035419

Also, if you change stamina in the editor, it gives you different fatigue levels:

Attachment 1035419

Are these effects too minimal? Maybe? But stamina and fatigue are directly related

So I think this is the disconnect: you think pitchers are penalized too much for pitching the day before. I disagree to an extent, because I think a starter who throws 50 pitches the previous day shouldn't be able to give much the next day, assuming a modern environment

Check this guy out:

Attachment 1035419

This seems realistic? He shouldn't be able to pitch much after throwing 47 pitches. I think the overall issue is the game uses fatigue like this:

1. SPs: it assumes he throws a starters workload
2. RPs: it assumes he throws a reliever workload

(in both cases, based on your league settings)

What you want, it seems, is stamina to be like an hour class. A guy can throw 100 pitches. His stamina % is equal to 100 pitches - pitches thrown the last day (on day 1) and then maybe each of the next four days it goes up by 25%?:

Theoretically:
Day 0: 95 pitches
Day 1: 100-95 = 5%
Day 2: 5 + 25 = 30%
Day 3: 30 + 25 = 55%
Day 4: 55 + 25 = 80%
Day 5: 80 + 25 = 105% -- round down to 100%

Honestly, I'm not sure that's a better way to do it, but that's not for me to decide.

--




A bit longer, yes. A lot older, most likely. I've played since OOTP 8, but not when it first came out. Maybe 2012 was when I started? Pretty much 1,000 hours in each of the last six versions and I do a lot of testing. That's 12 years of playing and at least 7,000 hours. Why does any of that matters though?

In fact, an RP with 1 stamina does go to 0%:

Attachment 1035422

I guess I'm just stuck on your numbers because you make it seem like it always happens, and there are no possible alternatives, even though that's not quite the case. Maybe in 85% of cases, sure, but since it's not 100%, there is some sort of relation between pitches thrown and stamina, as well as whether a pitcher is a SP or RP

But stop with the trying to be right stuff lol I'm doing my best to provide data and understand a potential change. Again, fatigue isn't perfect. It might be worth reworking. It's just all your claims aren't as accurate as you think. I guess it's the way I'm wording things that is making you think I just want to be right, everything you're saying is wrong, and the game is perfect. So I guess for that, my apologies.

But dude it does always happen! literally 100% of the time, unless you do a silly example where you start a pitcher and throw 4 or 6 pitches and then yank him (just to prove me somewhat wrong). I am talking about in game ,real league environments not silly i told you so tests. I told you I had a guy leave with injury after 2 pitches he was 4% the next day. Your 2 examples they might have very high stamina that's why they were able to be still at 14 and 15% (that's still ridiculous) Went through my entire league and looked at everybody's rotation ...everything I said held true to all 30 teams.. Every single league I've ever been in it's the same.

Again to explain wo Giving exact fatigue levels because I admit they may not be down to a T. But regardless of your picture or his stamina rating you get this:


Pitch yesterday: single digits
pitch 2 days ago: teens
pitch 3 days ago; 30s
Pitched 4 days ago: 60s
pitched 5 days : 100

Every. Single. Time. And 90% Of the time you can even predict the fatigue level down to the exact number LOL




And the only thing that you're pointing out is that the exact fatigue number I posted is not always exactly the same. But so what? it's Literally within the same range....But for the most part you can almost predict exactly what the fatigue level will be, but admittedly it's not always going to be the exact number it might be a couple percent into different , So what that wasn't exactly my point. But the fact that my numbers are accurate 90% of the time is still telling of how ridiculous it is

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Yes, if your point is most pitchers are 4% rested after starting the previous day, you are correct. I did what you did, simmed a day, and checked all pitchers, and only 1 pitcher wasn't at 4%. Most guys threw 70+ pitches, so this makes sense to some degree. Variation may be better, but that is just at the 1 day point

Things started to change as days advanced. I got 8, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 at the 2 day point. This seems to be a modern day issue, not a fatigue as a whole issue. It seems like you are almost guaranteed in a modern setup to have a guy be 4% rested after 1 day.

So next is testing a different year. I picked 1997, which has "default" for hook SP, "low" for stamina, and "1.048" for SP stamina. Here after 1 day, most were 4%, and after 2 it had a similar range.

Next up, 1977, which has default, normal, and 1.000. Here I got more of a mix, with 2s, 3s, 4s, even a 14 since a guy went only 63 pitches, and a 16 at 59. It does seem like if a guy "empties the tank" he gets capped at 4% fatigue. As I progressed, the single digits were between 14 and 21, with the two higher rested guys at 35 and 36. Sticking with those two, it went to 63 and 64 at 3, and both got to 100% at 4. The highest a single digit guy got to by day 4 was 71, and another got to 70. Both threw 109 pitches at the same stadium. There was another 70 elsewhere with just 96 pitches, and a third with 142

Interestingly, one team decided to pitch one of the 60% on short rest. He threw 99 pitches first, then 100 on 4 days rest. He was a 2%. Another short rest went 116 then 92, he was a 3%. There was a 137 to 74, he was 3%. 110 to 110, 2%. 96 to 101, 2%. 139 to 102, 1%. 115 to 90, 2%. 119 to 131, 2%. 135 to 68, 2%. But all guys with 4 full days of rest, were up to 100% on the 5th day.

So there is a sweet spot, and some differential, but I understand why you would want to see something different. There is room for improvement, but there is some variability. It's easier to see in past years, and I'm sure there's a ton in the 1940s and before.

But You're not understanding my problem. In your example they all threw 70 pitches.. okay yeah that's fine a generic 4% fatigue for everyone, small potatoes. I wouldn't have a problem with that... Problem is, say you put a pitch count for 30 because you are short a starting pitcher and you are going to work your bullpen a little harder. That pitcher will throw 30 pitches and still be at 4% the next day Benefit has an 80 stamina. he still can't pitch at 100 for 5 more days. Makes no sense at all. He should be No less than 40% fatigue

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Yes, if your point is most pitchers are 4% rested after starting the previous day, you are correct. I did what you did, simmed a day, and checked all pitchers, and only 1 pitcher wasn't at 4%. Most guys threw 70+ pitches, so this makes sense to some degree. Variation may be better, but that is just at the 1 day point

Things started to change as days advanced. I got 8, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 at the 2 day point. This seems to be a modern day issue, not a fatigue as a whole issue. It seems like you are almost guaranteed in a modern setup to have a guy be 4% rested after 1 day.

So next is testing a different year. I picked 1997, which has "default" for hook SP, "low" for stamina, and "1.048" for SP stamina. Here after 1 day, most were 4%, and after 2 it had a similar range.

Next up, 1977, which has default, normal, and 1.000. Here I got more of a mix, with 2s, 3s, 4s, even a 14 since a guy went only 63 pitches, and a 16 at 59. It does seem like if a guy "empties the tank" he gets capped at 4% fatigue. As I progressed, the single digits were between 14 and 21, with the two higher rested guys at 35 and 36. Sticking with those two, it went to 63 and 64 at 3, and both got to 100% at 4. The highest a single digit guy got to by day 4 was 71, and another got to 70. Both threw 109 pitches at the same stadium. There was another 70 elsewhere with just 96 pitches, and a third with 142

Interestingly, one team decided to pitch one of the 60% on short rest. He threw 99 pitches first, then 100 on 4 days rest. He was a 2%. Another short rest went 116 then 92, he was a 3%. There was a 137 to 74, he was 3%. 110 to 110, 2%. 96 to 101, 2%. 139 to 102, 1%. 115 to 90, 2%. 119 to 131, 2%. 135 to 68, 2%. But all guys with 4 full days of rest, were up to 100% on the 5th day.

So there is a sweet spot, and some differential, but I understand why you would want to see something different. There is room for improvement, but there is some variability. It's easier to see in past years, and I'm sure there's a ton in the 1940s and before.

But yes things do change as the day's progress but it's this same schedule

2 days after pitching teens
3 days after pitching 30s
4 days after pitching 60s
5 days after pitching 100

This scale goes on and on for every single pitcher in every single league , at every single level , regardless of stamina pitch count or what caliber of pitcher he is. Etc

[findinghomer]

Originally Posted by ayaghmour2

Yes, if your point is most pitchers are 4% rested after starting the previous day, you are correct. I did what you did, simmed a day, and checked all pitchers, and only 1 pitcher wasn't at 4%. Most guys threw 70+ pitches, so this makes sense to some degree. Variation may be better, but that is just at the 1 day point

Things started to change as days advanced. I got 8, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 at the 2 day point. This seems to be a modern day issue, not a fatigue as a whole issue. It seems like you are almost guaranteed in a modern setup to have a guy be 4% rested after 1 day.

So next is testing a different year. I picked 1997, which has "default" for hook SP, "low" for stamina, and "1.048" for SP stamina. Here after 1 day, most were 4%, and after 2 it had a similar range.

Next up, 1977, which has default, normal, and 1.000. Here I got more of a mix, with 2s, 3s, 4s, even a 14 since a guy went only 63 pitches, and a 16 at 59. It does seem like if a guy "empties the tank" he gets capped at 4% fatigue. As I progressed, the single digits were between 14 and 21, with the two higher rested guys at 35 and 36. Sticking with those two, it went to 63 and 64 at 3, and both got to 100% at 4. The highest a single digit guy got to by day 4 was 71, and another got to 70. Both threw 109 pitches at the same stadium. There was another 70 elsewhere with just 96 pitches, and a third with 142

Interestingly, one team decided to pitch one of the 60% on short rest. He threw 99 pitches first, then 100 on 4 days rest. He was a 2%. Another short rest went 116 then 92, he was a 3%. There was a 137 to 74, he was 3%. 110 to 110, 2%. 96 to 101, 2%. 139 to 102, 1%. 115 to 90, 2%. 119 to 131, 2%. 135 to 68, 2%. But all guys with 4 full days of rest, were up to 100% on the 5th day.

So there is a sweet spot, and some differential, but I understand why you would want to see something different. There is room for improvement, but there is some variability. It's easier to see in past years, and I'm sure there's a ton in the 1940s and before.

Originally Posted by Rain King

Starting Pitchers and Relief Pitchers have different routines. The game is meaning to emulate that. I don't disagree it could be improved, but sometimes things also need to work a certain way to avoid abuse/loopholes.

If you use an "Opener", though, that pitcher will prepare and recover like a relief pitcher and potentially be able to pitch the next day.

I was wondering if it was by design to prevent some kind of loophole. but I just can't figure out what that loophole is. Maybe if your bullpen is really good, it Causes you not to be able to use your bullpen. But my suspicion is that stamina means absolutely nothing whether you're a starter or a reliever and that's why they do it. Because I have used closers in starting roles as long as they had 3 good pitches and have succeeded just as a normal starter