Historical Player Ratings - Page 2

quillenl · 07-19-2022, 09:35 AM

Interesting bit on Neutral Stats from Spritze way back when. Not the post I recall, but def useful to know. Guess it is an excuse to go poking around the database later!

"Neutralized stats have not been updated for 2016. Less than 10 gamers use it anymore.

The reason for their existence was to fill in missing years back when OOTP was MLB only. Now the minor leagues do that."

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ts#post4198151

LansdowneSt · 07-19-2022, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quillenl

Interesting bit on Neutral Stats from Spritze way back when. Not the post I recall, but def useful to know. Guess it is an excuse to go poking around the database later!

"Neutralized stats have not been updated for 2016. Less than 10 gamers use it anymore.

The reason for their existence was to fill in missing years back when OOTP was MLB only. Now the minor leagues do that."

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ts#post4198151

This is indeed the case. I didn't keep the PMs from him but, even before he passed, the Neutralized database ceased being updated by Spritze.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ht=blake+snell - posts 64-66

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...e+snell&page=4

I imagine the game is caught between having an outdated database that may not be necessary and a set of users that still want to use it regardless. In my communications with him, I asked him direct, which set he thought I ought to use for the best game play and he said the Real Ones. I figured if the maintainer of the Neutralized database said that, that that was good enough for me.

quillenl · 07-19-2022, 10:08 AM

I have been doing a side by side of the Real Stats database vs the Neutral Stats database and honestly the Neutral Stats one seems like a bit of a waste. The changes are very subtle, and the only change for the stats is hits, doubles, triples, and Home runs. Walks, strikeouts, stolen bases, etc are all identical to the Real Stats database. Also confirmed the the stats within the Real Stats portion of the database are 1 for 1 with those on Baseball Reference. Any oddities with players like Maris are in how the calc is performed... and not so much the databse.

I would agree that it is reasonable to expect Single Season Recalc to better reflect those players who had outlier seasons. If it is averaging 3 or 5 seasons to come up with ratings... well... there is already a setting for when you want that.

jcard · 07-19-2022, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quillenl

I have been doing a side by side of the Real Stats database vs the Neutral Stats database and honestly the Neutral Stats one seems like a bit of a waste. The changes are very subtle, and the only change for the stats is hits, doubles, triples, and Home runs. Walks, strikeouts, stolen bases, etc are all identical to the Real Stats database. Also confirmed the the stats within the Real Stats portion of the database are 1 for 1 with those on Baseball Reference. Any oddities with players like Maris are in how the calc is performed... and not so much the databse.

I would agree that it is reasonable to expect Single Season Recalc to better reflect those players who had outlier seasons. If it is averaging 3 or 5 seasons to come up with ratings... well... there is already a setting for when you want that.

I am not suggesting either Real or Neutralized are superior and am probably just (as I hear is my wont) confused , but I was under the impression that the individual who goes by the name Garlon had redone the default neutralized database included with the game beginning with OOTP 22.

David Watts · 07-19-2022, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcard

I am not suggesting either Real or Neutralized are superior and am probably just (as I hear is my wont) confused , but I was under the impression that the individual who goes by the name Garlon had redone the default neutralized database included with the game beginning with OOTP 22.

I thought this as well.

Brad K · 07-19-2022, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quillenl

Neither Neutral nor Real Stats work the way it sounds like you desire from the later posts.

..................

There is a slight different in the editor values for Real vs Neutral so maybe I misunderstood what was changed. I'd fully expected them to be equal when I checked.

I didn't buy 23 because the release notes didn't indicate changes to the areas important to me. I bought 22 but have used it for testing only. My Pirates Moneyball save started on 21 and I've kept it there.

It seems that now they've applied the "adjust stats down for real life outlier seasons" to neutralized stats too. So now neither Real Stats nor Neutralized Stats are what the names say they are. And the manual still says Real Stats aren't neutralized.

quillenl · 07-19-2022, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcard

I am not suggesting either Real or Neutralized are superior and am probably just (as I hear is my wont) confused , but I was under the impression that the individual who goes by the name Garlon had redone the default neutralized database included with the game beginning with OOTP 22.

I did some looking (thanks for the name), and didn't find that reference but did find this thread which explained a lot .

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...=Garlon&page=4

Brings up some additional questions that I believe are probably due to the semantics of what people mean when they talk about stats. I think a lot of what he refers to about the stats for real vs neutral is actually how the engine interprets the data. I have found no examples in the Real Stats database of anything not matching up with their real life stats. I do get his explanation of why season 1961 creates a scenario where Mantle generates looking like he hit more homeruns than Maris and look forward to testing some stuff based on that.

Brad K · 07-19-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcard

I am not suggesting either Real or Neutralized are superior and am probably just (as I hear is my wont) confused , but I was under the impression that the individual who goes by the name Garlon had redone the default neutralized database included with the game beginning with OOTP 22.

The manual refers to neutralized stats and the Garlon/Spritze option. So I'd say with credit given to people outside the company, it happened.

What wasn't answered in the discussion a year or so ago is whether that database is neutralized against the same park factors as the game uses. I think probably not as early in the discussion Garlon thought Real Stats weren't neutralized and later found they were. There may have been a different decision on how to neutralize had he known this when the work was being done.

Brad K · 07-19-2022, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quillenl

I did some looking (thanks for the name), and didn't find that reference but did find this thread which explained a lot .

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...=Garlon&page=4

That was quite a thread. Thank yo for linking it.

Brad K · 07-19-2022, 11:11 AM

My current save on 21 currently at 45 game years duration, was set up using real stats before I realized what it really meant, before the completion of the discussion on the linked thread. I didn't remember I had done that and stumbled across the setting about 40 years into the game. I would never have used real stats had I known what I know now. So I feel like bad advise from people who should have known how the game worked but didn't has resulted in a save that isn't actually what I want.

The Game · 07-19-2022, 10:08 PM

After reading Brad K's comments here I tried using neutralized for 24 imports. Using neutralized pitcher velocity is 85-87 regardless of era. Real stats adjust them, which should be the other way around. While yes Pud Galvin probably only threw 85-87, Pedro did not. Using real Pedro is at 94 ish, Pud at 88-89. When I open the league I'll post screenshots.

Brad K · 07-20-2022, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

After reading Brad K's comments here I tried using neutralized for 24 imports. Using neutralized pitcher velocity is 85-87 regardless of era. Real stats adjust them, which should be the other way around. While yes Pud Galvin probably only threw 85-87, Pedro did not. Using real Pedro is at 94 ish, Pud at 88-89. When I open the league I'll post screenshots.

Please continue your investigation. Nobody knows in full what these things do because there's no contemporaneous documentation. User research is the only way to know.

jcard · 07-20-2022, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quillenl

I did some looking (thanks for the name), and didn't find that reference but did find this thread which explained a lot .

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...=Garlon&page=4

Brings up some additional questions that I believe are probably due to the semantics of what people mean when they talk about stats. I think a lot of what he refers to about the stats for real vs neutral is actually how the engine interprets the data. I have found no examples in the Real Stats database of anything not matching up with their real life stats. I do get his explanation of why season 1961 creates a scenario where Mantle generates looking like he hit more homeruns than Maris and look forward to testing some stuff based on that.

For what it is worth, this was the thread which I recalled. Quickly glancing at it, point #51 in the first post is an example of to what I was referring. I did not go through the thread now, just hunted it down in case it was of use to anyone:

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=326065

beepollen · 07-20-2022, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

After reading Brad K's comments here I tried using neutralized for 24 imports. Using neutralized pitcher velocity is 85-87 regardless of era. Real stats adjust them, which should be the other way around. While yes Pud Galvin probably only threw 85-87, Pedro did not. Using real Pedro is at 94 ish, Pud at 88-89. When I open the league I'll post screenshots.

May I ask, what are the pitchers' injury ratings/proneness? The times I tried neutralized, it make just about every single pitcher Fragile.

The Game · 07-22-2022, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beepollen

May I ask, what are the pitchers' injury ratings/proneness? The times I tried neutralized, it make just about every single pitcher Fragile.

I Don't recall. i deleted all the neutralized versions and used real.

Brad K · 07-22-2022, 11:23 AM

Is injury proneness in the stats? I can understand stamina for pitchers but where would the data for injury proneness be obtained/

Reed · 07-23-2022, 12:52 PM

It has been a while since I tried neutralized. Does it still put in fake stats for missing seasons? That is why I stopped using it because in my opinion it made it more unreal than real stats. I can’t remember, if you click “players miss season as in real life” does that work using neutralized stats since those players do have “fake” stats.

07-19-2022, 09:35 AM	#21
quillenl All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 581	Interesting bit on Neutral Stats from Spritze way back when. Not the post I recall, but def useful to know. Guess it is an excuse to go poking around the database later! "Neutralized stats have not been updated for 2016. Less than 10 gamers use it anymore. The reason for their existence was to fill in missing years back when OOTP was MLB only. Now the minor leagues do that." https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ts#post4198151 __________________

07-19-2022, 10:08 AM	#23
quillenl All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 581	I have been doing a side by side of the Real Stats database vs the Neutral Stats database and honestly the Neutral Stats one seems like a bit of a waste. The changes are very subtle, and the only change for the stats is hits, doubles, triples, and Home runs. Walks, strikeouts, stolen bases, etc are all identical to the Real Stats database. Also confirmed the the stats within the Real Stats portion of the database are 1 for 1 with those on Baseball Reference. Any oddities with players like Maris are in how the calc is performed... and not so much the databse. I would agree that it is reasonable to expect Single Season Recalc to better reflect those players who had outlier seasons. If it is averaging 3 or 5 seasons to come up with ratings... well... there is already a setting for when you want that. __________________

07-19-2022, 10:08 PM	#31
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,936	After reading Brad K's comments here I tried using neutralized for 24 imports. Using neutralized pitcher velocity is 85-87 regardless of era. Real stats adjust them, which should be the other way around. While yes Pud Galvin probably only threw 85-87, Pedro did not. Using real Pedro is at 94 ish, Pud at 88-89. When I open the league I'll post screenshots. __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

07-19-2022, 11:11 AM	#30
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	My current save on 21 currently at 45 game years duration, was set up using real stats before I realized what it really meant, before the completion of the discussion on the linked thread. I didn't remember I had done that and stumbled across the setting about 40 years into the game. I would never have used real stats had I known what I know now. So I feel like bad advise from people who should have known how the game worked but didn't has resulted in a save that isn't actually what I want.

07-22-2022, 11:23 AM	#36
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	Is injury proneness in the stats? I can understand stamina for pitchers but where would the data for injury proneness be obtained/

07-23-2022, 12:52 PM	#37
Reed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,393	It has been a while since I tried neutralized. Does it still put in fake stats for missing seasons? That is why I stopped using it because in my opinion it made it more unreal than real stats. I can’t remember, if you click “players miss season as in real life” does that work using neutralized stats since those players do have “fake” stats.