Joe Morgan on OBP

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by Rose14
Not that anything an ex-player says is golden, but when it comes to knowledge of the game of baseball, if I had to choose between a Hall of Famer and someone who plays computer baseball sims (including myself), I think I'd go with the former.

Normally, great players don't make great teachers because their enormous talent makes doing the difficult easy. I think Joe the player was much wiser than Joe the announcer. Ted Williams had a rough go as a manager.

[Gastric ReFlux]

The people that build and design the rockets don't always fly them. Don't get me wrong, ballplayers can have great insights. But some ain't all that bright, and some are too damn close to the trees to see the forest.

[Rose14]

I'm not saying Morgan is a MENSA candidate. I wouldn't care about Morgan's thoughts on Iraq or Bush's tax cut plan, nor do I think he is a good announcer. I'm just saying the one thing he knows more about than all of us combined is baseball.

No, rocket scientists don't fly the rockets they design and build, but they sure as heck know more about them than anyone else. Does that mean they could fly one? No, but if one of them wrote an opinion piece on rockets I'd tend to believe his or her opinion on the subject over that of someone who launches model rockets in his backyard.

/end clarification

[Gastric ReFlux]

[clarification]

And I'm not saying that Morgan doesn't have baseball knowledge. Nor am I convinced that just because Joe Morgan played baseball, that he knows more about it than everyone who has never played major league baseball.

[/end clarification]

[Rose14]

I'm not saying "everyone," but I stand by my original statement (which I find baffling that is being challenged):

HOFer vs OOTPer in baseball knowledge (not trivia)?

My money is on the HOFer. Everytime.

Arguing against that would be like me, a former garage band drummer, trying to convince you I know more about percussion than Neil Peart. Can I have my opinion? Certainly. But the average music fan is going to take Peart's opinion over mine. Everytime. To do otherwise would be laughable.

[obaslg]

I think the point of the analogy is that just b/c JM was a great pilot it doesn't mean he knows anything about designing rockets. If JM were a HoF manager or GM, I'd be more inclined to listen to him, though I wouldn't listen to Abner Doubleday if he said the stuff JM says.

I would take at least half the people I meet in online baseball over JM. I would take any smart person after a few days of study over him, too. Sure he "knows" much more than I do about how to hit, field, etc., but that doesn't take much brains, and as far as I can tell from the majority of what he says, JM is great evidence of that.

I should probably spend my time on something more productive than this, but he can really make watching a game annoying.

[Gastric ReFlux]

You can choose to believe what you wish to. But I'd suggest that you better define to your own self exactly what "baseball knowledge" you think is being disputed.

I wouldn't dispute that Joe Morgan would know better than me how to lay into a 95 mph fastball.

At the same time, I could probably reel off Joe Morgan's career baseball stats faster than he can.

Joe could tell you a lot more about how to read a pitcher's stretch in order to get a good jump on a pitcher.

I could name the top 10 in career stolen bases faster than Joe.

Joe is an expert in certain matters of baseball knowledge. Those don't necessarily transfer over to other areas.

[Rose14]

"I wouldn't dispute that Joe Morgan would know better than me how to lay into a 95 mph fastball."

KNOWLEDGE


"At the same time, I could probably reel off Joe Morgan's career baseball stats faster than he can."

TRIVIA


"how to read a pitcher's stretch"

KNOWLEDGE


"the top 10 in career stolen bases"

TRIVIA.


Thus the parenthetical qualification, "(not trivia)", in my last post.

"Joe is an expert in certain matters of baseball knowledge. Those don't necessarily transfer over to other areas."

I couldn't agree more, but I don't think the importance of OBP could be called an "other area."

[Gastric ReFlux]

"I wouldn't dispute that Joe Morgan would know better than me how to lay into a 95 mph fastball."

On second thought, this could be better labelled as ability, not truly knowledge.

"At the same time, I could probably reel off Joe Morgan's career baseball stats faster than he can."

Well trivia is knowledge. Even better is taking that knowledge and studying it.

[Gastric ReFlux]

In 1983, Joe Morgan had a great September which helped the Phillies drive down the stretch to a championship in the Eastern Division and then victory in the LCS. At one point Joe said something like "I don't think I've ever had a bad September." As Bill James said, "I think we've finally found Joe's weakness: the man has no memory."

[obaslg]

Personally, my complaint about him isn't that he's ignorant, but stupid.

[Spielman]

Originally posted by Rose14
I'm not saying "everyone," but I stand by my original statement (which I find baffling that is being challenged):

HOFer vs OOTPer in baseball knowledge (not trivia)?

My money is on the HOFer. Everytime.

Arguing against that would be like me, a former garage band drummer, trying to convince you I know more about percussion than Neil Peart. Can I have my opinion? Certainly. But the average music fan is going to take Peart's opinion over mine. Everytime. To do otherwise would be laughable.

Well sure.

But this is the equivalent of talking to Neil Peart about the processes involved in the fabrication of drums. Peart knows all about playing them; he may or may not have a great deal of knowledge about making them.

Joe Morgan knows a great deal about playing baseball, that's obvious. He may or may not know #### ******* $$$$ about the theory of baseball statistics. It's a seperate field, and a seperate knowledge base is required.

Not understanding that... that's what's laughable.

[JML]

You're all laughable, and so is Joe Morgan. The only statistic that's worth anything is the hold. duh.

[Rose14]

How did we get from my argument that HOF players know more about the game than us OOTPers, to Bill James's opinion of Joe Morgan's memory?

He he. I give up. I still stand by my original point (which I still don't think is arguable), but I appreciate the debate, Gastric. You're a fine American, and I'd buy you a beer anytime.

[Rose14]

Spielman wrote:
But this is the equivalent of talking to Neil Peart about the processes involved in the fabrication of drums. Peart knows all about playing them; he may or may not have a great deal of knowledge about making them.

It's a seperate field, and a seperate knowledge base is required.
Not understanding that... that's what's laughable.


Laughable? Give me a small personal break. Who MAKES the game of baseball? It isn't a product that is made, it is a game that is played.

Despite its irrelevancy, if one wanted to stretch your analogy into something remotely resembling an argument in this thread, one could say that the managers "make" the game and the players play it. In that case, how many managers are former players? Why? Because they've been around the game so long that they understand it. On the contrary, how many drummers are former drum manufacturers?

One is a natural progression of knowledge and understanding, the other isn't.

It ain't that tough, people.

[edited for typos]

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Aadik
Morgan amazes me; someone once put it this way
Morgan was a 270BA/ 360 OBP hitter, but he would prefer a 300BA/310 hitter... Its too bad; I used to think he was one of the most intelligent players in baseball, but I think something fell of the wagon, so to speak.

This is one thing I don't understand about people on this board. When soemone agrees with you, they're lauded as the most intelligent being on the planet. But when they disgree they're bumbling dolts that have no clue what they're talking about.

You never step back and think about "maybe I could be wrong about this". Instead, you close your mind to any new way of thinking and dismiss it as fiction and hearsay.

Personally, I think Joe Morgan is a horrible broadcaster and should be removed from ESPN but his article, IMO, was well-written and supported.

[JML]

Is it just me, or is it bitter in here?

[Jason Moyer]

*looking for the line of owners outside Joe Morgan's door looking to hire him as a GM*

Jason

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by sixfour210
This is one thing I don't understand about people on this board. When soemone agrees with you, they're lauded as the most intelligent being on the planet. But when they disgree they're bumbling dolts that have no clue what they're talking about.

You never step back and think about "maybe I could be wrong about this". Instead, you close your mind to any new way of thinking and dismiss it as fiction and hearsay.

Personally, I think Joe Morgan is a horrible broadcaster and should be removed from ESPN but his article, IMO, was well-written and supported.

hey genius, my arguement is based on factuality- study after study has shown the OBP has a higher correlation with runs scored then BA; thus, all things considered, a higher OBP is more important than a higher BA since we can at least agree that scoring more runs is better. This isn't exactly rocket science- it is empirical evidence based on a 100 years of baseball. If you don't acknowledge it, you are purposefully ignorant, whatever my personal opinions of morgan may be.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Aadik
hey genius, my arguement is based on factuality- study after study has shown the OBP has a higher correlation with runs scored then BA; thus, all things considered, a higher OBP is more important than a higher BA since we can at least agree that scoring more runs is better. This isn't exactly rocket science- it is empirical evidence based on a 100 years of baseball. If you don't acknowledge it, you are purposefully ignorant, whatever my personal opinions of morgan may be.

And yet you prove my point. Joe Morgan gave several facts in his article just as you supposedly do but of course your facts are the right ones, right? However, I tend to lean toward Morgan because he knows the difference between than and then.