I Need Help Understanding This...

[daves]

Originally Posted by Orcin

What happens in the 50% of your games that are played away from your cheese park? Most teams win the majority of their home games anyway. The key is to win the majority of your road games also. I don't see how a cheese strategy accomplishes that goal.

Over half of the Perfect league is righty or lefty cheese. This is actually getting out of hand.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by daves

Over half of the Perfect league is righty or lefty cheese. This is actually getting out of hand.

It does rather cease to be a baseball game at that point, doesn't it? Next year they might think about standardising the PT ballparks.

[lightningbolts35]

Originally Posted by Hertston

It does rather cease to be a baseball game at that point, doesn't it? Next year they might think about standardising the PT ballparks.

Couldn't agree with you more. They could make 3 parks to choose from...pitcher's park, hitters park, and neutral park.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The real oddity in that game is how Glavine managed to have a no-hitter through six innings against a RH-heavy lineup.

I am with you there. I use Glavine only as a specialist/long reliever following RH starters.

[Torgonius]

Originally Posted by lightningbolts35

Couldn't agree with you more. They could make 3 parks to choose from...pitcher's park, hitters park, and neutral park.

They could have park cards, and missions to unlock more. Hundreds of parks to choose from, because you could add in Japan and Korea parks, too.

[professor ape]

I personally am running a neutral park and have worked to nerf-proof my roster as much as possible. I’ve had my best two weeks in Diamond. I’m not sure if the park has contributed. I’ve raised the “cheese” issue elsewhere and a valid argument that comes up is that real ballparks (including current ones) have some crazy park factors. They argue that if ballparks are unusual IRL then why shouldn’t they be able to be that way in the game?

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by professor ape

I personally am running a neutral park and have worked to nerf-proof my roster as much as possible. I’ve had my best two weeks in Diamond. I’m not sure if the park has contributed. I’ve raised the “cheese” issue elsewhere and a valid argument that comes up is that real ballparks (including current ones) have some crazy park factors. They argue that if ballparks are unusual IRL then why shouldn’t they be able to be that way in the game?

that's awesome! Neutral/balanced should be a viable approach as well if done well. The game is better with as many viable options as possible.


Some real parks are indeed more extreme than what's allowed in PT, in terms of overall offense or pitching. But there aren't parks where lefties have a 20% advantage over righties. So the realism argument kinda works, kinda not. Personally I like that cheese is allowed because otherwise the teams would be extremely similar...fun gameplay trumps realism.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

that's awesome! Neutral/balanced should be a viable approach as well if done well. The game is better with as many viable options as possible.


Some real parks are indeed more extreme than what's allowed in PT, in terms of overall offense or pitching. But there aren't parks where lefties have a 20% advantage over righties. So the realism argument kinda works, kinda not. Personally I like that cheese is allowed because otherwise the teams would be extremely similar...fun gameplay trumps realism.

Agreed. I think that people should be able to set their parks freely within bounds of the current major league park factors. There would have to be some logic to make sure people are staying within the real life bounds of L/R balance. Even there, a few parks like Fenway have big swings for certain stats.

[ncap99]

I think unlocking parks somehow either through achievements or making them "cards" somehow, or maybe results of collections would be pretty interesting. Pretty hard to run a lefty cheese rotation without the park to support it so maybe it adds some variety to team building when unlocking a new park can change your entire strategy.

To be honest it would make little difference at the top as everyone at PeL level would have them all unlocked anyway, aside from a bit more control over what you would see.

In my opinion if they'd just fix the unbalance between contact/AvoidK and power you'd see a lot less cheese. It would open up about 50-60 potential meta level cards instantly and also you wouldn't have to platoon so hard to have a team BA over like .230.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by ncap99

In my opinion if they'd just fix the unbalance between contact/AvoidK and power you'd see a lot less cheese. It would open up about 50-60 potential meta level cards instantly and also you wouldn't have to platoon so hard to have a team BA over like .230.

Historically I'm right there with you...the contact/power balance is crucial. But I actually think it's much better this year already. You see a lot of Yaz, Schmidt, Morgan, Giambi etc. getting played at the high levels now and putting up good numbers. Well maybe not batting average...but that's fine, as long as they can get on base and hit a dinger occasionally with good defense, that's valuable too.

[ncap99]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Historically I'm right there with you...the contact/power balance is crucial. But I actually think it's much better this year already. You see a lot of Yaz, Schmidt, Morgan, Giambi etc. getting played at the high levels now and putting up good numbers. Well maybe not batting average...but that's fine, as long as they can get on base and hit a dinger occasionally with good defense, that's valuable too.

But you just named 4 very heavy platoon guys that are only played against the starters they have 100+ contact in (well Yaz has 99 but close enough), which sort of is the point.

If a guy with 85 contact and 130 power hit .250 with 35-40 HRs they'd get used - but that guy right now is going to hit .180 with 25 HRs most likely. If I gave you a choice of 2 players with the same exact numbers outside of avoidK/con/pwr, same position and one of them had 100 contact, 100 avoidK and 25 power and the other one had 85 contact, 130 power and 75 avoidK which one are you using? If the stats were weighted somewhat equal the 2nd guy has 290 "stats" and the first guy has 225 - it shouldn't be even close. But the reality is you're using the first guy 100% of the time.

[chazzycat]

True, but at least they are playable with a power/eye based profile, which is an improvement I think. And even if contact is around 100, that doesn't really make them contact-first players. Their avoidK and babip ratings are still far worse than a Pete Rose type, resulting in much lower batting averages. But the eye & power are actually contributing to their overall value in a way that seems a lot more viable than last year. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

[DotDash]

I looked at the park factors employed by teams in two Diamond leagues, and then checked what factors the leading teams (winning percentage above .600) are using the most. I found:

9 ballparks favouring LHB, hosting 4 of the best teams.
2 favouring RHB, hosting 1 of the best teams.
30 'true' neutral parks, 4 of the best teams.
9 neutral parks with HR suppressed - 1 team above .600.
5 neutral parks favouring hitters - 1 team above .600.
3 neutral parks with HR raised - no teams above .600.
1 neutral park favouring pitchers - no teams above .600.
1 weird park with average for RHB lowered but HR for RHB raised - 1 team above .600.

With 11 cheese ballparks out of 60 (18%) supplying 5 out of 12 teams (42%) above .600, it seems like cheesing is currently the way to go. However, it could also indicate that players involved enough to mess with park factors (and strategy sliders, etc.) simply also have the best cards, due to investing more time or money in the game, or both.
The best winning percentage I saw (.700) belonged to one of just two Righty cheese teams I spotted. This could be down to park factors, etc., but the more dominant factor may be the obscene luxury of having all three of Reuss, Hahn and Hubbell in the BP

[daves]

In Perfect league last week, there were 12 lefty cheese and 7 righty cheese, that is close to 1/2. In the World Series it was righty vs lefty cheese.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by professor ape

I’ve raised the “cheese” issue elsewhere and a valid argument that comes up is that real ballparks (including current ones) have some crazy park factors.They argue that if ballparks are unusual IRL then why shouldn’t they be able to be that way in the game?

Which is fine, if they also argue that IRL baseball clubs do not have the luxury of selecting their roster from Hall of Famers entirely on the basis of whether they happen to be left or right handed, so that shouldn't be that way in the game!

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Personally I like that cheese is allowed because otherwise the teams would be extremely similar...fun gameplay trumps realism.

That's lost me. Given the full range of playable cards available, how on earth does division of teams into 'lefty' or 'righty' flavors rather than any of the possible combinations in between generate less similarity rather than substantially more of it?! A very large number of combinations is being reduced to effectively two. Struggling to see the 'fun gameplay' here.

[ChessSafari]

Originally Posted by bailey

Over 230 players have completed all the collections and hundreds more are close to completion. Good luck finding any kind of microscopic edge in DiL in the coming weeks. One of the (probably unintended) side effects of requiring players to hang on to most of their collection rewards is that everyone has all the same cards.

Exactly what I was thinking.

BTW, is there such a thing as a cracked version of a card?
I heard DRC_Nomads mention it rather jokingly on his Sunday stream. But my 100 Harry Heilmann has a below .240 career BA and and average WAR/600 below 1.0 in Gold and Diamond. In my five Diamond seasons thus far, he has crapped the bed every single time. Yet, I keep trotting him out there every week because I see him having success for teams in Diamond and Perfect. Still, he seems to choke in every clutch situation. I started platooning him at DH vs LHP only plus pinch hitting vs RH starters. No discernable difference. My park is neutral, though I've had it juiced for both sides and nerfed for both sides in different seasons. Affects the other cards, but not ole Harry. He has over 2000 PA now, so I no longer shrug it off to sample size. Just wondering.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Hertston

That's lost me. Given the full range of playable cards available, how on earth does division of teams into 'lefty' or 'righty' flavors rather than any of the possible combinations in between generate less similarity rather than substantially more of it?! A very large number of combinations is being reduced to effectively two. Struggling to see the 'fun gameplay' here.

Two is more than one? Also, I still believe neutral builds are viable. That makes three. Without cheese, there is just 1 best player at every position, period. You can have all the cards in the world, but there will always be one that is best in a neutral environment.

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Two is more than one? Also, I still believe neutral builds are viable. That makes three. Without cheese, there is just 1 best player at every position, period. You can have all the cards in the world, but there will always be one that is best in a neutral environment.

Again, I'm afraid I still don't see it. 'Neutral' builds should encompass a considerable range of possibilities dependent both on the players and the tactics in use. They are not 'one' choice, or shouldn't be. If you are correct (I've never reached the lofty Perfect heights to find out) and there is one best player in every position - and by implication one best set of tactics for them - then there is a fundamental problem with the game far deeper than whether there is a whiff of cheese about.

[chazzycat]

I do think that's how it is. There are tons of smart people playing this game who figure things out quickly, not to mention the stats are available for anyone to look at. Without cheese, whoever puts up the most WAR is gonna get used the most (with some exceptions maybe like catchers whose value aren't captured by WAR).

As things currently stand, cheese is absolutely the biggest differentiator of rosters because the park factor effects simply have a far larger impact than any slider or strategies do. There's no slider to give your hitters a 20% advantage over your opponents. That makes a lot of players more viable in that specific build, than they otherwise would be, increasing the number of cards being used.

And let's not act like lefty or righty cheese is just 1 build either. I shouldn't have oversimplified that. There are notable variations - do you max your gaps or min them? That's a huge swing in doubles (1.5X modifier vs .5 is 3X the doubles). What about homers? These things matter a lot too. So really there are quite a few combinations of builds encompassed by "lefty cheese".

[ncap99]

I personally don't have an issue with cheese comps. You don't think the Yankees look for left handed sluggers with that short porch in RF? Groundballer pitchers for the Rockies? Things like that.

My issue is about player viability in general. I think more playable cards = more versatility in what strategies you can work towards. I think this has both to due with the stat effectiveness but also how some cards are just so much better than others even when comparing historical perfects. Sammy Sosa peak has less power against righties than Joe Morgan (both of them hit righties better, fyi) - how does that make any sense at all? Stuff like that is all over the place.