Pirates Play Moneyball 1951 - ????

[Brad K]

Stayed close through July. Clemente was out a month late in the year but can't blame the collapse on that.

SP Bob Veale 20 - 8, 2.06 ERA. and 8.7!!! WAR.

SP Jim Bunning 17 - 10, 2.10 ERA, 4.7 WAR.

SP Barry Latman missed a month. 11 - 6, 2.73 ERA, 2.5 WAR


Leo Cardenas did well as the new SS, 286/324/428 5.4 WAR

Same with new 1B Donn Clendenon, 287/338/437 4.2 WAR.

Expected record was 96 - 66 vs 88 - 74 actual.

[Brad K]

Would it be better if I were to make more posts like the one above? Without them I'm wondering if there's enough context for my "newspaper articles".

I checked and I overstayed reality on the state abbreviation of Penn. The post office changed it to PA a year before I did. Oh well. At least the government didn't take the h out of Pittsburgh again.

[Brad K]

Not Giving Up Has A Price

Oct 16, 1964
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Pittsburgh PA

After a disappointing fourth place finish Pirates fans are likely to have off season disappointments too. Three key Pirates qualify for free agency during the off season: Starter Jim Bunning, Second Baseman Bill Mazeroski, and Center Fielder Felipe Alou.

Odds are that at best the Pirates will be able to retain just one of the trio. Speculation is that combined the players can earn $500k to $600k in free agency for the first year alone. All would be expected to obtain multi year contracts with further increases. For comparison the Pirates entire 1964 payroll was $803k.

Some have suggested that the players should have been traded at the trade deadline so some value could have been obtained from them. A contender would have been willing to trade some value for these players, even if they turned out to be half a season rentals. Instead the Pirates get nothing for the free agents.

General Manager Anne Bonny dismissed the criticism. "At the trade deadline, we WERE a contender. We were playing .600 ball and were 4 1/2 games out of first."

Bonny has a reputation for getting better than expected results, which is essential for the success of a small market team. Bunning is clearly out of reach, with a projected salary of $200k plus, but the Bucs might be able to afford either Alou or Mazeroski. Even so, it appears lean times are ahead.


Felipe Alou, Jim Bunning, Bill Mazeroski

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Would it be better if I were to make more posts like the one above? Without them I'm wondering if there's enough context for my "newspaper articles".

I checked and I overstayed reality on the state abbreviation of Penn. The post office changed it to PA a year before I did. Oh well. At least the government didn't take the h out of Pittsburgh again.

I think you need to let them know results in this way for the context you mention.

Hard luck re '64, those Dodgers were just too tough hey?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

I think you need to let them know results in this way for the context you mention.

Hard luck re '64, those Dodgers were just too tough hey?

I've noticed in the past early to mid 60s first place team win totals are quite high. They are really beating up on expansion teams who have much worse than real records.

In this game I cut the protected players per team to 12 (plus those with 3 years or less pro experience) and the still can't compete. However it seems while the game says pro experience it really means major league experience.

Anyway, expansion teams need better players.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

I think you need to let them know results in this way for the context you mention.

Been wondering how many "them" are out there. It appears there are some from the read count but only you have commented.

Suggestions are being solicited! I've already done more than I intended but now I'm into it and might as well do it as best I can.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I've noticed in the past early to mid 60s first place team win totals are quite high. They are really beating up on expansion teams who have much worse than real records.

In this game I cut the protected players per team to 12 (plus those with 3 years or less pro experience) and the still can't compete. However it seems while the game says pro experience it really means major league experience.

Anyway, expansion teams need better players.

Yeah, as you're trying to closely replicate history this might not be the route you want to take, but the other area I found expansion teams lacking in was budget, so to improve the parity of my main save I flatten the curve each year in the financials. As it stands the highest budget in this league is $68m and the lowest $47m. Seems to be working better in one sub-league - my version of the NL, in which two of the four playoff teams were expansion clubs - than the other.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Been wondering how many "them" are out there. It appears there are some from the read count but only you have commented.

Suggestions are being solicited! I've already done more than I intended but now I'm into it and might as well do it as best I can.

Few will ever comment, but that doesn't mean they're not out there! I do all of my leagues and associated reporting for myself. Anyone else is just gravy. But it's nice to have dialogues like these with others about your league(s), no doubt about that.

Going great guns so far bud.

G

[Brad K]

I'm not necessarily trying to replicate history. I'd like players to perform kind of like real life but it just has to be plausible to be be acceptable. Teams, well, its where ever they go.

Like Carlos Bernier who real life played MLB only 1953. He played 9 years in my game (maybe more, I haven't checked on him) with averages that are right there with what he did in his single real life season.

I've not done anything with money except set the Pirates market to below average and if it gets bumped I'll push it back. I'll look into the money and see how it is.

[Brad K]

Will The Fans Be Back?

April 10, 1965
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Bradenton FL

With the end of Spring Training its time for the team and the press to leave the mild Florida weather for the somewhat colder spring weather in Pittsburgh. But the team will also be facing a chilly reception from the fans.

Due to the loss of Jim Bunning, Bill Mazeroski, and Felipe Alou to free agency, fan interest fell 19 points during the off season. And season ticket sales plunged 29%. Even the return of fan favorite and Pittsburgh native Frank Thomas didn't dent the decline.

Casual fans will need a scorecard to identify the players. Except for Right Fielder Roberto Clemente and Third Baseman Bob Bailey, none of the position players has been a starter for the Pirates more than a single year. Yet despite the loss of talent the experts predict a close second place finish for the Pirates.

Maybe some wins will bring the fans back to the park. But it takes more than winning. Fans want to win with players they know and like. Most of the current players they don't know. And three of their favorites are now playing for other teams.

[Brad K]

Context post

1965 contracts of Pirates who left via free agency

Jim Bunning age 33 signed with Milwaukee Braves five years $210K $210K $210K $190K $190K.

BIll Mazeroski age 28 signed with California Angels eight years $128K $138K $150K $162K $162K $162K $150K $150K.

Felipe Alou age 29 signed with New York Mets four years $154K $176K $190K $210K.

Total first year is $492K, second year $524K, third year $550K, fourth year $582K.

Pirates opening day 1965 payroll $866K 15th of 20 teams.

League minimum is $13K

Pirates position players

C Jim Pagilaroni age 27 $75K
1B Donn Clendenon age 29 $13K
2B Leo Cardenas age 26 $109K
SS Gene Alley age 25 $13K
3B Bob Bailey age 22 $13K
LF Willie Stargell age 25 $13K
CF Lenny Green age 32 $70k
RF Roberto Clemente age 30 $110K


Pitchers earning over minimum

SP Bob Veale age 29 $80K
SP Joe Gibbon age 30 $69K
SP Jack Fisher age 26 $45K
CL Jim Ulbricht age 34 $28K
CL Al McBean age 27 $20K

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Context post

1965 contracts of Pirates who left via free agency

Jim Bunning age 33 signed with Milwaukee Braves five years $210K $210K $210K $190K $190K.

BIll Mazeroski age 28 signed with California Angels eight years $128K $138K $150K $162K $162K $162K $150K $150K.

Felipe Alou age 29 signed with New York Mets four years $154K $176K $190K $210K.

Total first year is $492K, second year $524K, third year $550K, fourth year $582K.

Pirates opening day 1965 payroll $866K 15th of 20 teams.

League minimum is $13K

Pirates position players

C Jim Pagilaroni age 27 $75K
1B Donn Clendenon age 29 $13K
2B Leo Cardenas age 26 $109K
SS Gene Alley age 25 $13K
3B Bob Bailey age 22 $13K
LF Willie Stargell age 25 $13K
CF Lenny Green age 32 $70k
RF Roberto Clemente age 30 $110K


Pitchers earning over minimum

SP Bob Veale age 29 $80K
SP Joe Gibbon age 30 $69K
SP Jack Fisher age 26 $45K
CL Jim Ulbricht age 34 $28K
CL Al McBean age 27 $20K

That's a tough break, losing all 3. That budget doesn't give you much hope of retaining the good ones, though, does it.

It's like I'm watching my A's!!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Yeah, as you're trying to closely replicate history this might not be the route you want to take, but the other area I found expansion teams lacking in was budget, so to improve the parity of my main save I flatten the curve each year in the financials. As it stands the highest budget in this league is $68m and the lowest $47m. Seems to be working better in one sub-league - my version of the NL, in which two of the four playoff teams were expansion clubs - than the other.

Here's the 1965 budgets.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Here's the 1965 budgets.

You're doing this save with the express purpose of trying to win on the cheap, so you should probably leave them alone. Were it my save I'd be looking to narrow that bottom-top multiple to 2 to begin with.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

That's a tough break, losing all 3. That budget doesn't give you much hope of retaining the good ones, though, does it.

It's like I'm watching my A's!!

I imagine so!!!

Except for Bunning I could have dealt with the first year salary. Problem is the length they wanted. Alou won't be able to play CF much longer and I had no where to move him. Maz looks to be on the way to a better than real life career so maybe I should have signed him.

My idea with the payroll restrictions was to reduce the advantage a human has in having somewhat of an idea who is safe to sign long term and who isn't. Having development and TCR on doesn't negate a human's advantage.

For example, Clemente doesn't look like he's going to have a career as good as real life. So maybe instead of the $110K I'm paying him he's only worth $90K. But AI teams are out there paying guys 110K who collapse at age 30 to replacement level players. So my $20K loss in value in almost nothing.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

You're doing this save with the express purpose of trying to win on the cheap, so you should probably leave them alone. Were it my save I'd be looking to narrow that bottom-top multiple to 2 to begin with.

Except for one year the budget allowed me to spend more. I'm keeping payroll significantly under the half way point.

One year we had a terrible record early and the fans stopped coming. We recovered for a decent finish but attendance stayed down. It was down so far for the year the owner cut the budget to the point I had restrictions on scouting budget. So that's the year I traded Smokey Burgess to keep the scouting budget. (This was before I wrote my first report on this save.)

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I imagine so!!!

Except for Bunning I could have dealt with the first year salary. Problem is the length they wanted. Alou won't be able to play CF much longer and I had no where to move him. Maz looks to be on the way to a better than real life career so maybe I should have signed him.

My idea with the payroll restrictions was to reduce the advantage a human has in having somewhat of an idea who is safe to sign long term and who isn't. Having development and TCR on doesn't negate a human's advantage.

For example, Clemente doesn't look like he's going to have a career as good as real life. So maybe instead of the $110K I'm paying him he's only worth $90K. But AI teams are out there paying guys 110K who collapse at age 30 to replacement level players. So my $20K loss in value in almost nothing.

Yep, it's an excellent way to play. In that main save of mine I have full rev available but impose set limits on my club's budget each year, in addition to the other edits I mentioned. EG Owner gave me $90m last year, I cut that to $62m, my standing max payroll is $55m, our actual payroll ended up being $28m. We won it all with the 10th lowest payroll of 36, so it's doable and it feels great when you do!

[Brad K]

Surprise! Mid June found the Pirates in a tie for first place!!!

--------------

Pirates Add Arm For Pennant Chase

June 15, 1965
Washington Observer
Pittsburgh, PA

After losing three stars to free agency many had 1965 figured as a nothing year for the Pirates. And certainly fans are making their views known. Attendance is down 27% compared with last year.

But yesterday found the Pirates, in a shock to many, in a tie for first with the Cubs. The 42 - 22 Bucs led the third place Braves by a substantial 6 1/2 games.

The weak spot of the team has been starting pitching, usually a club strong point. The the starters ERA ranks a mediocre fifth in the league. So the Pirates went looking for a starting pitcher.

"We expected to give up some young players for a veteran starting pitcher" said General Manager Anne Bonny. "Instead the best deal turned out to be an unknown, 19 year old starting pitcher Jim Palmer."

Palmer certainly isn't polished - he sometimes loses the plate - but he has decent stuff and three good pitches. Scouts suggest he's near his ceiling, but Bonny says it doesn't matter. "We traded for him because he can do now what we need done now".

To obtain Palmer the Pirates gave up third baseman Ken McMullen and minor league starting pitcher Steve Blass. McMullen is a capable third baseman but Bob Baily looks to have a lock on that position for several years. Blass is a highly rated prospect but has had a rough time the last two years in AA and AAA. Blass was unable to break into the major league rotation while Palmer is already penciled in as the #3 starter.


--------------------------------

Pirates' Bonny Is Dealing

June 16, 1965
Pittsburgh Press
Pittsburgh, PA

For the second day in a row the Pirates have announced a two for one trade. Yesterday second baseman Leo Cardenas was traded to Detroit with minor league center fielder Larry Elliot for second baseman Dick McAuliffe.

Unlike the previous day's trade which was ignored by the fans, this one caused significant grumbling. Cardenas had quickly become a fan favorite. He was obtained in a trade before last season fix the problem at shortstop caused by Dick Groat's departure. During spring training this year he moved to second base as the replacement for Bill Mazeroski.

The trade will cost McAuliffe an All Star Game appearance. McAuliffe leads all American League second basemen in votes. But National League President Warren Giles said the votes aren't transferable to the National League. "The leagues are separate" said Giles. "Those votes were not cast in competition with votes for other National League second basemen and will not be counted here."

Leo Cardenas is second in voting in the National League. American League President Joe Cronin has not yet stated whether he can represent the American League in the All Star Game.

[Brad K]

Notes

As it says in the article I went shopping for a veteran starting pitcher. I expected a big salary rental which was OK. I was surprised to find Palmer among the offers. Blass was 2 star, Palmer 3 stars by my scout. (Palmer dropped to 2.5 within a month.)

McMullen was MLB ready and I had no place to play him. Almost as good as Bob Bailey. I wasn't getting much value for his talent as all I could use him for is a backup at third and as a PH.

The Cardenas for McAuliffe trade was about getting equal value in a starting 2B while having an extra year on the team. Cardenas was free agency eligible after the season and wanted a lot of money. McAuliffe had an extra year before FA. Elliot would have ben a fine good field no hit backup CF but I already had two of those.

Anyway, in a tie for first with a record supported by expected wins I figured it was time to push for a pennant now.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Notes

As it says in the article I went shopping for a veteran starting pitcher. I expected a big salary rental which was OK. I was surprised to find Palmer among the offers. Blass was 2 star, Palmer 3 stars by my scout. (Palmer dropped to 2.5 within a month.)

McMullen was MLB ready and I had no place to play him. Almost as good as Bob Bailey. I wasn't getting much value for his talent as all I could use him for is a backup at third and as a PH.

The Cardenas for McAuliffe trade was about getting equal value in a starting 2B while having an extra year on the team. Cardenas was free agency eligible after the season and wanted a lot of money. McAuliffe had an extra year before FA. Elliot would have ben a fine good field no hit backup CF but I already had two of those.

Anyway, in a tie for first with a record supported by expected wins I figured it was time to push for a pennant now.

Good moves, hopefully they pay off, especially Palmer. Time for the big poosh!

Go Bucs!