It might be the same game engine but it isn't producing the same results

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by slic1149

FWIW, The only reason to play a game is if you are having fun. It is, after all, a game. I can only speak for myself but I would suggest you quit playing. I am sure the developers would hate to lose you as a customer and be sorry you found their game somehow lacking. But you have expectations that are not being met. Just remember your dissatisfaction is yours and it does not affect my enjoyment at all. I hope you find a game that does meet your expectations.

Thanks for the advice.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Does this happen when you sim out a game, or only when you manage games yourself pitch by pitch?

If possible, could you set up the same league and sim the first 18 games and report the numbers?

The difficulty I would have doing this is that I totally revamped (and improved I thought) the Marlins bullpen in the month prior to the season, through trades and waiver wire claims. It's not a process I could go through again and recreate so while the starters would be the same, the entire BP would be different.
And again, this is not an observation I am basing on one (Marlins) save. This was the sixth, with various teams, in which the same trend was clearly apparent.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Bobfather

I also play out every game. (one pitch). But I ignore the stats until the end of May. I suggest playing out more games to see if the numbers normalize
Just a suggestion, not a criticism.

Not taken as criticism, Bobfather, and if you and others who play out the games are not seeing the same sorts of results then I guess my experience with six different teams is an anomaly of some sort.

I should say that I didn't abort the five previous saves in a fit of pique because of this issue. Doing new start ups with various teams is my normal MO. (I like to tinker with the various rosters, check out the farm systems, and deal with any challenges pertaining to finances.) But I did notice the same thing happening to various degrees with the previous five teams.

I was all set to run with the frugal Marlins as a more permanent save and then I encountered this issue yet again. That won't be happening now.

As for your suggestion, which is really an extension of the "need a larger sample size" theme, playing out the games until the end of May shouldn't make any kind of significant difference in a 'realistic baseball sim'.

This is not a case of one or two pitchers on a staff suddenly losing the ability to K people - that happens and I understand. This is something that is afflicting pretty much every pitcher on every staff I've played, save one or two with career normal K rates.

So if these rates suddenly start to correct themselves for all these players over time, how realistic is that? They could K people at their career normal rates up to 2021, then none of them could do it for the first two months of the season but, oh wait a minute, as we move forward almost all of them are starting to return to their career normal rates.

That is not how baseball works IRL. There are outliers and exceptions, yes, but for that to happen to the majority of six different pitching staffs - if it happened by playing out more games - still constitutes a programming defect.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

The difficulty I would have doing this is that I totally revamped (and improved I thought) the Marlins bullpen in the month prior to the season, through trades and waiver wire claims. It's not a process I could go through again and recreate so while the starters would be the same, the entire BP would be different.
And again, this is not an observation I am basing on one (Marlins) save. This was the sixth, with various teams, in which the same trend was clearly apparent.

I am just curious if the actual baseball simulation engine is any different when you manage games yourself vs when you simulate the game.
It should not be, but if you are seeing this issue across multiple saves then I have to wonder if there might be an issue here.
I have not seen anything wildly beyond what I am used to, but I also never manage any of my games. I might go in and watch a small handful of important games from time to time. But a vast majority of the time I am just simming from day to day and only acting as the GM.

[KentCol]

I'm playing the Rangers. My guys strike out 9-14 times a game and the majority of them called third strikes. This happened last version and this one. And I'm in August of this season. And don't get me started on every one of my SP getting bombed every start. Frustrating.

[Pdubya64]

DS:
Perhaps not such a coincidence? I was venting to the Colonel in another thread about my experiences running 2021 MLB teams thus far.
Here is the text:

Colonel:

I use all but the WBC as well.

Looking for some... guidance I guess?

I have started two 2021 MLB games with the latest patch to serve as a "warmup" of sorts into OOTP this year. No modifications to settings.
1. Phillies as GM/Manager (all games simulated)
2. Tigers as GM only (all games simulated)

First of all, I understand neither of these teams is an easy draw, particularly the poor Tigers. But at least they have a good farm system. The Phillies cupboard is BARE.
With the Phillies I hired a superb Head Scout to get the ship tacking the right direction and one or two minors Head Coaches to improve player dev. I also made some changes to the roster, tried to eliminate dead weight contracts (pretty successful), but I could never reach .500 like the Owner wanted in goals come early August.

The Tigers I knew were going to be a slog-fest. AJ Hinch is great, I changed to a Bench Coach a bit better with the same "normal" personality. Made a bunch of dead-weight lightening moves, improved the defense but in the first month the team went 2-26 and the clubhouse was "Feuding". Guess I can't blame them.

My "something isn't quite right" bump is itching, but I can handle the blame if it is on me.

In Philly I traded away Zach Eflin because even when July came around he was 0-7 with an ERA above 7. Hell, even our ace Nola was 6-7 with an ERA in the 4s. Their defense isn't the greatest, so... yeah, not sure. Oh, and Harper was hitting .223 with 19 homers in August. Uggh.
I could say the same about the general sh#tshow in Detroit, the pitching staff just got hammered day after day, despite improving the defense around them at 1B and LF.

So... is it just me or does the game just punish the hell out of human teams? Not so much trades or periphery stuff, but wins and players playing to their ability on average. Granted, the Tigers are a hard pick, but I thought the Phillies should have played .500 ball by August.
Am I off-base or just in need of a settings adjustment Colonel?
Thanks!
Pdub

So... yep, I am kinda wondering why human players seem to be such a punching bag in 2021. Maybe I am in the wrong, but the sim engine sure seems wonky to me right now.
P.

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

That, along with the absurdly low babip's of far too many of my players - again in every attempted start up - renders the game basically unplayable from the point of realism.
Yes, IRL, there are always a few outliers - especially 18 games into a season. But OOTP - and I really started to notice this last year and it's worse in OOTP22 - takes everything to an extreme and consequently you have a mutltude of pitchers with less than 5 K's per 9 innings and at least five batters with babip's under .200 and another group well under the norm of around .300.
And they are not offset by a couple part-time role players with babips over .400 in limited playing time. Sorry.

Is this something only with real life rosters because I've literally seen none of this.

I'm playing two leagues, one a carry over that used to be a real life roster (started in 19) and now is basically a "fictional league" and one that is "fictional" from the start.

This is the BABIP's of my team in the always fictional league:



K/9:




The Former 2018 MLB save:

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I am just curious if the actual baseball simulation engine is any different when you manage games yourself vs when you simulate the game.
It should not be, but if you are seeing this issue across multiple saves then I have to wonder if there might be an issue here.
I have not seen anything wildly beyond what I am used to, but I also never manage any of my games. I might go in and watch a small handful of important games from time to time. But a vast majority of the time I am just simming from day to day and only acting as the GM.

I understand your reasoning. Makes good sense. I guess what I could do is start a new save (and make a second copy) then play the games out in one and sim the other - that would be the best approach.
But at this point I really don't have the time or energy to do that for multiple reasons beyond being a little jaded right now.
We each approach the game differently - I like to manage the games because it brings the players and their performances to life as opposed to simply checking the sim results.
I'm also very hands on as a GM, especially with rebuilding or small market teams, trying to spend and save every last dollar so I'm very active transactionally. If I couldn't do this and remained hands off so that the players remain basically the same in both saves, I think I would soon lose interest.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by KBLover

Is this something only with real life rosters because I've literally seen none of this.

I'm playing two leagues, one a carry over that used to be a real life roster (started in 19) and now is basically a "fictional league" and one that is "fictional" from the start.

This is the BABIP's of my team in the always fictional league:



K/9:






The Former 2018 MLB save:

Hey KBL,
I probably shouldn't have 'muddied the waters' with my beef about an extreme number of insanely low babip's over an 18 game period.
I think it's a legitimate concern that it happens too frequently to too many players at once. I mean, the screenshot I posted is just absurd if you think about it. Five or six regulars almost subterranean while four bench or role players are the only ones above the norm.
I guess teams do go into hitting slumps or have a run of bad luck, though, so the small sample size argument might carry some weight here and maybe it straightens itself out over the course of a season and you end up with one or two outliers either way. But extreme nature of some of these babip's and the quantity of them seems more than a little over the top to me.
Almost forgot to ask, KBL....I am assuming you are playing your games out right?

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Almost forgot to ask, KBL....I am assuming you are playing your games out right?

I watch every game. I let the managers and coaches do their thing.

I'm "at the stadium" in the 3D mode. As you say, it brings it to life and I can see what the manager is doing with the staff and lineup and make changes if needed to roles or what roles he leans on, etc.

The only out of whack thing I see is there's a lot of WP and PB in 3D mode. That's not a new observation to this year, though.

Otherwise, teams play like their ratings suggest and in general alignment with the league "meta" and environment set.

My "always fictional" team is a gap-to-gap team of aggressive hitters in a 2B/3B haven of a stadium and they play that way offensively. They run aggressively on the bases even if they don't steal and make a lot of contact.

And I certainly see K's from my pitchers. I better since all but two pitchers have 65/80 stuff or higher

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

I understand your reasoning. Makes good sense. I guess what I could do is start a new save (and make a second copy) then play the games out in one and sim the other - that would be the best approach.
But at this point I really don't have the time or energy to do that for multiple reasons beyond being a little jaded right now.
We each approach the game differently - I like to manage the games because it brings the players and their performances to life as opposed to simply checking the sim results.
I'm also very hands on as a GM, especially with rebuilding or small market teams, trying to spend and save every last dollar so I'm very active transactionally. If I couldn't do this and remained hands off so that the players remain basically the same in both saves, I think I would soon lose interest.

I understand your frustration and sympathize with you. But it would be nice to get to the bottom of this and find out what is going on.
First, to see if it really is an issue that needs to be addressed, if you have seen it across six leagues and others are reporting weird issues, it makes me think that is really is an issue.
Second, we need to find out if the issue lies with those who manage their games and those who sim their games.

If there are differences between the core baseball engine when you manage your own games and when you sim out games, then that is a massive issue that needs immediate attention.
The developers might not even know this is an issue.

So I understand your frustration and being jaded, but some further testing needs to be done so we can identify what is going on and bring it to their attention for a possible fix.
If there are issues with the core baseball engine then the entire game becomes compromised.

[luckymann]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind of the existence of a differential in results - over and above those caused by human interaction and decision-making - between simulated games and those played out.

There is the same amount of certainty in my mind this has worsened with 22.

One of the main issues I encounter is stealing / baserunning.

Here's a good example. I traded away one of my players to another team in my division almost exactly halfway through the season. When he left our club he had 26 steals. When the season was over he had over 80. And I employ a running game.

It isn't a matter of CS% but rather the AI countermanding your steal commands at an unseemly high rate. I understand the whole concept of count unfavourability and all that jazz (I use one-pitch mode) but surely if I'm the manager / player, the decision should be mine and mine alone as to whether or not the guy should try to steal the base. And, yes, I'm aware of the other options available to me such as run and hit blah blah blah but why should I have to revert to those when what I want is a straight steal. if my guy gets mown down, so be it - that's on me. Not sure how the AI engine even comes into decisions like this at all. It's a huge frustration that has a massively adverse effect on gameplay, especially when I'll then see time and time again in the same game one of their guys stealing second when his ratings were lower than my guy and my catcher's are higher than theirs.

The other area when playing out games that is increasingly difficult is judging when to take an extra base / try for home etc. The 3D is admittedly much improved across the board except in this area, where one is easily misled one way or another by the display as to the wisdom of holding up or waving around.

I would think in both of these gameplay elements some sort of probability rating in a pop-up box would be an improvement, whereby you are told some rough odds of success / failure and given the option to green-light or hold up. It's not perfect and takes some of the mystery out of it, as well as slowing down the game (although there is already a pop-up box for advancing baserunners), but it is an improvement on the sheer guesswork required at present.

Not meaning to hijack your thread DS2, but I think this goes towards your general argument. If I am seeing this using one-pitch, I can only imagine the exponential effect PbP would have.

Consider yourselves lucky I didn't get started on infield hits GRRRRRRRRR....

[fuzzy_patters]

I just checked my White Sox save. I’ve managed every game. I am on June 30. I only have two players with a BABIP less than .279, and one of them (Billy Hamilton) is a guy that I have had bunt a lot. As for k/9, the second worst on my team is 9.1. The only one below that is Dallas Keuchel, as you would expect. I think you’re dealing with a small sample size.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by fuzzy_patters

I just checked my White Sox save. I’ve managed every game. I am on June 30. I only have two players with a BABIP less than .279, and one of them (Billy Hamilton) is a guy that I have had bunt a lot. As for k/9, the second worst on my team is 9.1. The only one below that is Dallas Keuchel, as you would expect. I think you’re dealing with a small sample size.

Then we can certainly agree to disagree. But even if it is the result of a small sample size (6 times) it's still an issue as far as I'm concerned in that it is not two or three isolated cases on a staff but pretty much an entire staff, save one or two pitchers.
That is not realistic, small sample size (6X) or not.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I understand your frustration and sympathize with you. But it would be nice to get to the bottom of this and find out what is going on.
First, to see if it really is an issue that needs to be addressed, if you have seen it across six leagues and others are reporting weird issues, it makes me think that is really is an issue.
Second, we need to find out if the issue lies with those who manage their games and those who sim their games.

If there are differences between the core baseball engine when you manage your own games and when you sim out games, then that is a massive issue that needs immediate attention.
The developers might not even know this is an issue.

So I understand your frustration and being jaded, but some further testing needs to be done so we can identify what is going on and bring it to their attention for a possible fix.
If there are issues with the core baseball engine then the entire game becomes compromised.

I appreciate your efforts to look at this situation from all angles and I've been giving your idea some thought.
I think I might start a new saved game over the weekend. I can make any transactions leading up to opening day, then create the second ( to be simmed) save that day.
That way the pitching staffs and rosters and coaches will be the same at that point.
Can't promise I won't make a deal or two moving forward - in fact I can almost guarantee I will - and, of course, injuries and performance-based decisions will impact the two saves differently as well, but a majority of the pitchers should remain the same.
If I do this, I will post the career MLB stats for the pitchers prior to opening day so we have historical reference points untarnished by whatever transpires once the OOTP season begins.Of course there can and should be outliers, both positive and negative, in any given sample size. But we shall see if the same affliction affects basically every pitcher on the staff - again.
I'm leaning toward The Cleveland Baseball Club but will make a final decision on the weekend.
Cheers

[ptFri217]

I’m wondering if “Pitch to batter” should be used every single pitch on Pitch by Pitch
Mode. Perhaps the AI in that mode will use “pitch around” in certain counts, leading to swing and misses on pitches outside the zone, while your “pitch to batter” in say an 0-2 count grooves one, that at the very least, goes for groundouts at a higher rate. It’s my understanding that “pitch around” increases the chances of a ball but decreases the chances of a ball in play or solid contact if it is. I never play this way and just use One Pitch, so this is just a guess. But yea, Pitch Around in a 2 strike count should lead to significantly more K’s, with the downside being a ball that still doesn’t walk the batter.

[ptFri217]

As for stolen bases, #8 “send forced” might be what you’re looking for. It lowers the SB% because the runner will steal even on a bad jump but at least guarantees an attempt. #4 “steal” is treated more like a green light with respect to gameplay, and the runner will only go if he thinks he can make it. I was thinking SB’s on my user managed team are waaay higher, but with a SS who’s game generated nickname is “Blur”, I spam the 8 key cause I just can’t help myself!

[OutS|der]

Do the same results happen if you let the AI manage all decisions and watch the games?

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

They could K people at their career normal rates up to 2021, then none of them could do it for the first two months of the season but, oh wait a minute, as we move forward almost all of them are starting to return to their career normal rates.

That is not how baseball works IRL. There are outliers and exceptions, yes, but for that to happen to the majority of six different pitching staffs - if it happened by playing out more games - still constitutes a programming defect.

Actually this is how baseball works. Sometimes teams slump and then self correct over the rest of the season. It's a 162 game season, not 18. You can watch the Giants self correct over the rest of the year IRL.

[mytreds]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Actually this is how baseball works. Sometimes teams slump and then self correct over the rest of the season. It's a 162 game season, not 18. You can watch the Giants self correct over the rest of the year IRL.

HA! As a Giants fan I can attest, I am patiently waiting for reality to kick in.

As for the OP- Dave, I’m sorry that you’re getting so frustrated with the game. I feel every year the simulator is becoming less and less realistic and more fantastic. This is why I exclusively play fictional leagues so I don’t get upset when I see unrealistic things happen in the MLB saves.