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Old 05-15-2020, 03:07 AM   #21
Westheim
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I'm not positive teams have pandemic insurance for their contracts. Does anybody know how insurance companies work? They'll try every angle not to pay out. Off the top of my head, maybe team X has insured their contracts against natural disasters. An insurance company with a corps of lawyers might refuse pay - proof that it's natural, and not man-made in a lab. (I know a real story or two......)

Besides, a 50% cut for a 50% season (okay, 51% season) doesn't sound that bad to me. Who's still gotta foot 100% property tax (at least where it hasn't been waived until biblical Armageddon plus one day), power bill (they'll still play under lights, right?) and maintenance cost for all facilities like that big old ballpark that better not crumble before they can let people in again? The owners.

I am not siding with the billionaires over the millionaires, as is often said. At the end of the day, there's plenty of ***holes in both groups. I am siding with BASEBALL. All I want is the billionaires, the millionaires, and the ***holes to work out a deal for some semblance of baseball after all.

If I have to eat the universal DH for a season because of it - (holds up t-shirt with print "NO DH!") ... bring it on. Sacrifices have to be made.

Speaking of sacrifices...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiodevil View Post
"Y'all gotta understand, man, for me to go -- for me to take a pay cut is not happening, because the risk is through the roof," Snell said while answering questions on his Twitch channel.
Is that the actual quote? If so, he's not bothered by the risk in itself. He'll play for 100% salary. All he really cares about is $$$. He's the guy that yells "YES!!" when asked whether he'd stick his **** into a hornet's nest for $25M ...
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Last edited by Westheim; 05-15-2020 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Just to make sure everyone is clear on what happened and is happening.

The players and MLB signed a contract

The players then agreed, due to the coronavirus, to alter the original contract and take a pay cut.

Now, the owners are asking for a THIRD agreement and for the players to take ANOTHER pay cut.

The owners haven't and wouldn't redo the deals when they make more money. But because they're going to lose money, they are asking for the SECOND time for the players to redo the agreement.
Two things about the bold. 1)This is a negotiation. It makes sense that both sides will put out there what they ideally want. We've heard what the owners want and we're starting to hear what the players want. 2) My gut tells me that the bold is correct, that if the players accept the 50/50 split they will lose money because as of now there will be no fans in the stands generating the type of money to make 50/50 worth it to the players. But we don't know that a 50/50 split is a guaranteed loss for the players. We only logically assume at this point.

I back the players in being against the idea of 50/50, but I don't think we can speak so definitely.

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Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
The owners are billionaires. Billion-aires. 1,000,000,000-aires. And "they deserve it because they took the risks". Well, the risk works both ways. That's why it's risk.

They are usually drowning in money, this year they can take a bath
Have any of the owners said the bold? I'm not sure I've seen that anywhere.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post

Speaking of sacrifices...



Is that the actual quote? If so, he's not bothered by the risk in itself. He'll play for 100% salary. All he really cares about is $$$. He's the guy that yells "YES!!" when asked whether he'd stick his **** into a hornet's nest for $25M ...
Yeah, that was right from the article and he said that. But he tried to backtrack and say that it is about the risk too....he clearly did say that he would not play for half his salary, but implied that he would for the full amount.

Former MLB pitcher Brian Anderson (and player rep for the union) was on a local radio station yesterday and he said "people don't want to hear baseball players argue about salary". He does make some good points in the interview.

https://omny.fm/shows/baskin-phelps/...ear-baseball-p

Last edited by ohiodevil; 05-15-2020 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:51 AM   #24
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It always baffles me when I see (not so much here) normal Joes defending ownership in sports labor disputes. Aren't these contracts insured? And how is fulfilling the contract you offered in full even though the season is cut short because of a natural disaster any different than paying the full contract if the guy tears his ACL in spring training and is out for 2 years?
Using the average player salary versus the average team payroll that's $4 million for one missed season for one player versus $140 million for one missed season for an entire team. There's a huge difference between fulfilling the contract of one guy missing an entire season and fulfilling the contracts of an entire team missing an entire season.

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I think the union should be lauded for offering to play for a pro-rated salary,
I agree 100%. It was a very smart move on their parts.

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but ownership asking for a 50/50 revenue split is hilarious. Here, you 1000 guys who are the ones generating all of the league's revenue take this half, and the 30 of us will take the other half.
Meh. It's negotiations. Put out there what you ideally want.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:57 AM   #25
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Does anyone have a link showing what the "revenue" is that would be split?
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:06 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cephasjames View Post
Does anyone have a link showing what the "revenue" is that would be split?
I am wondering this too, been looking but nothing concrete showing what exactly it would be made from. My guess would be TV deals and sponsorships/commercials/ad revenue since I highly doubt fans will be allowed into the stadiums.

But then you have to factor in that some teams have much better local TV deals than others do. I can only imagine that a team like the Yankees has a huge deal in place, where a team like Tampa or Pittsburgh has a much smaller one.

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Old 05-15-2020, 08:16 AM   #27
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A 50/50 split does not mean they play for half their contract. It means they play for a fixed portion of revenue (which is unknown).

That is an absolute non-starter because it is literally a salary cap.

Shocker that people read something online and get mad without understanding.
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:35 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
A 50/50 split does not mean they play for half their contract. It means they play for a fixed portion of revenue (which is unknown).

That is an absolute non-starter because it is literally a salary cap.

Shocker that people read something online and get mad without understanding.
I think it's because of what he said:

"If I'm gonna play, I should be getting the money I signed to be getting paid. I should not be getting half of what I'm getting paid because the season's cut in half, on top of a 33% cut of the half that's already there -- so I'm really getting, like, 25%."

They have not agreed on the terms of the deal but with the season being cut in half, they are saying that the players will only earn half their salary for this season. The 50/50 revenue split is what the owners are wanting and the players do not.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:21 AM   #29
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That kinda is what I said. He's not even getting his contract pro-rated for half a season, it is half taken down by about half again since it would be pegged to lower revenues.

Just really shocking to me how every time the public sides with ownership, who is now using a pandemic as leverage to screw over players into accepting a salary cap which is pretty much the only thing they haven't taken away from them already.

Last edited by dkgo; 05-15-2020 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:25 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westheim View Post
Is that the actual quote? If so, he's not bothered by the risk in itself. He'll play for 100% salary. All he really cares about is $$$. He's the guy that yells "YES!!" when asked whether he'd stick his **** into a hornet's nest for $25M ...
Huh? You can still be bothered by risk but willing to accept a certain level of it depending on the payoff. That's literally what evaluating risk vs reward is... we all do it every day.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
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That kinda is what I said. He's not even getting his contract pro-rated for half a season, it is half taken down by about half again since it would be pegged to lower revenues.

Just really shocking to me how every time the public sides with ownership, who is now using a pandemic as leverage to screw over players into accepting a salary cap which is pretty much the only thing they haven't taken away from them already.
I think this is the only way we ever see a salary cap implemented in baseball, but the odds are slim to none that it will happen because the players don't want it. I feel we are in for another battle similar to 1994 strike...but this may be a lot costlier to both sides and the game may have a hard time recovering.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:48 AM   #32
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Quote:
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I'm not
Is that the actual quote? If so, he's not bothered by the risk in itself. He'll play for 100% salary. All he really cares about is $$$. He's the guy that yells "YES!!" when asked whether he'd stick his **** into a hornet's nest for $25M ...
It's PART of the actual quote

I don't believe a single person here who is criticizing Snell would be cool with it if it was there job that:

They agreed to work for a certain salary

Because of the shortening of the season agreed to a prorated salary

Then, their boss said, we've never ever showed you how much money we make, but, trust us, we're going to make less than what we thought so how about it we just split what we make (and remember we're not going to show you the books, so, just trust us) this year while you work in much worse conditions than usual: increased risk of disease, separated from your friends and famila, locked up aside from games
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Old 05-15-2020, 10:07 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
A 50/50 split does not mean they play for half their contract. It means they play for a fixed portion of revenue (which is unknown).

That is an absolute non-starter because it is literally a salary cap.

Shocker that people read something online and get mad without understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
That kinda is what I said. He's not even getting his contract pro-rated for half a season, it is half taken down by about half again since it would be pegged to lower revenues.

Just really shocking to me how every time the public sides with ownership, who is now using a pandemic as leverage to screw over players into accepting a salary cap which is pretty much the only thing they haven't taken away from them already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
It's PART of the actual quote

I don't believe a single person here who is criticizing Snell would be cool with it if it was there job that:

They agreed to work for a certain salary

Because of the shortening of the season agreed to a prorated salary

Then, their boss said, we've never ever showed you how much money we make, but, trust us, we're going to make less than what we thought so how about it we just split what we make (and remember we're not going to show you the books, so, just trust us) this year while you work in much worse conditions than usual: increased risk of disease, separated from your friends and famila, locked up aside from games
The bold is the first thing I assumed when I first saw the 50/50 split proposal. But we don't know how much the revenue is or is not going to be because we don't know what "the revenue" is and where it comes from.

I do agree 100% that 50/50 looks like less money for the players than prorated salaries. I also think the owners painted themselves into a corner by offering and signing onto the prorated salary earlier. But I have no problems with them putting out the 50/50 proposal in the negotiations if they view that as an ideal situation for themselves and/or for baseball. Just like I have no problem with the players in the negotiations telling the owners to stuff it. Negotiations never start on middle ground or in favor of "the other party."
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Old 05-15-2020, 04:25 PM   #34
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That's true about negotiations, either side can start by proposing whatever they want, but the people criticizing players for not taking the owner's "offer" are just being absurdly wrong.

The fact is the players ALREADY agreed to prorated salaries. Now owners want what was already half to be cut EVEN MORE depending on how much revenue ends up being. Gameday revenue is about 40% of teams revenue, so with no fans at games all that is gone from the pie.

Funny how owners never give players extra money on top of their contract when profits are higher than expected, but they expect labor to share in the losses.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:21 AM   #35
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Blake Snell made $573,700.00 last year.

This year, his contract is for $7,600,000.00.

IF you chop his contract in HALF, his pay raise is only 622%.

Mr. Snell needs to calm down.
He was really really really underpaid last year.
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Old 05-16-2020, 02:31 AM   #36
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He was really really really underpaid last year.
He should take up his grievances with the MLBPA then.
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Old 05-16-2020, 05:17 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dsvitak View Post
Blake Snell made $573,700.00 last year.

This year, his contract is for $7,600,000.00.

IF you chop his contract in HALF, his pay raise is only 622%.

Mr. Snell needs to calm down.
Thats a dumb way to look at it

He's making, at most, ha...er...HALF his market value
So, last year, he was making 8% of his worth.

Mr. Snell should be angry
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsvitak View Post
Blake Snell made $573,700.00 last year.

This year, his contract is for $7,600,000.00.

IF you chop his contract in HALF, his pay raise is only 622%.

Mr. Snell needs to calm down.
Blake Snell made $4M last year. A $1M salary plus a $3M signing bonus. The remainder of his deal is:

2020: $7M
2021: $10.5M
2022: $12.5M
2023: $16M

That is actually well underpaid relative to his peers in the ace SP category. I know it isn't well underpaid compared with the rest of us schlubs, or the people risking their lives on the front lines during this pandemic, but he's still well underpaid. He's also already given the Rays a little over $82M (FanGraphs estimate) in surplus value, including his $684,000 signing bonus back when he was drafted back in 2011. It is the Rays who (once again with their brilliant front office) have made out like bandits in this deal.

Also, there's the fact that the owners will never show accurate figures for revenue (never have - why would they start now?), so I can guarantee you that the players will not only make less than the prorated deals (basically half of what they would've made) that they've agreed to take, but they'll really have no idea if they're actually getting their proper share of the 50/50 revenue sharing agreement. There's no way in hell they should agree to a 50/50 agreement, when they don't accurately know the total amount of dollars that they're being asked to take half of.

Allegedly, the owners made $10.7B last year. Given their ability to play fast and loose with true revenues, how do we know that that figure isn't higher? I can guarantee you it ain't lower. They make the players out to be the bad guys in these pissing contests, and we fall for it every goddamn time.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:42 AM   #39
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He was really really really underpaid last year.
Not nearly as underpaid as he was in 2018. That was obscene.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:47 AM   #40
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I think this is the only way we ever see a salary cap implemented in baseball, but the odds are slim to none that it will happen because the players don't want it. I feel we are in for another battle similar to 1994 strike...but this may be a lot costlier to both sides and the game may have a hard time recovering.
I never want to see a salary cap for the sole reason that I like veteran for multiple prospect trades, and those would become much more difficult to pull off with a cap in place. They've already cut off so many ways for rebuilding teams to attempt to speed up their rebuilds, and I feel like that would be the last decent avenue for them.
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