Do you think the yankees are evil? - Page 2

joshuaaaaaa · 04-08-2002, 02:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cooleyvol:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by joshuaaaaaa:
I do call it evil when you know a salary cap would be a good thing for the game as a whole and you don't care because you like spending $115 million on your payroll.<hr /></blockquote>joshuaaaaaa,

No offense, but that makes NO sense at all! I suppose if you owned the Yankees, or any other team, for that matter, you wouldnt spend all the money at your disposal in order to win just because you wanted the league to have parity and a salary cap? Thats bulls#it!! You'd spend every dime you had to win a WS and you know it.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I'm glad you know how I think. Too bad you're wrong. There's no question I'd want to make a healthy profit and I'd want a good team on the field.

At the same time, I'd want to ensure that the game would be here in twenty years for the next generation of fans, and if that meant giving up part of my profits, that's okay.

You should never assume that everyone is motivated by money. First of all, after a certain point, where are you going to spend it all? Secondly, I don't need a fifty room mansion to be happy. So, if I make a healthy profit and I'm doing good things for everyone, that is motivation enough for me.

SoxWin · 04-08-2002, 03:09 PM

I don't hate the Spanks but they do in fact lick balls.

Cheers

Rich

Cooleyvol · 04-08-2002, 04:22 PM

So, if you can make a profit and field a decent team, you'll be happy?

You wouldnt last long as a GM and even less time as a manager. I thought the name of the game was winning.

As far as the game "being here" in twenty years......have no fear, this is baseball we're talking about. It'll always be here......it would take more than Steinbrenner to bring it down.

This is all "green-eyed jealousy of the Yank's winning. I didnt hear folks yelling about the Yankees being the "anti-Christ" a few years ago when they weren't winning. I only hear it now. This all stems from the fact that the players who MADE baseball way back in the EARLY 1900s wore the pinstripes.

Face it, if it werent for the Yankee teams of baseball's early years, the game wouldnt hold the mystique and place in American culture that it does today.

Joshuaaaaaa, say what you won't but you'll never make me believe that you are so "pure" that you wouldnt win at any cost. Any owner or GM in the league would do EXACTLY what Steinbrenner does/has done in order to win. Hell, Ted Turner tried to, but he wasnt near as smart as 'Ol George. George spends alot of money, but he spends it on guys who produce as they should. Spending money, in and of itself, doesnt win pennants. Spending money WISELY does.

zsommers · 04-08-2002, 04:53 PM

qb][/QUOTE]Well, I'm glad you know how I think. Too bad you're wrong. There's no question I'd want to make a healthy profit and I'd want a good team on the field.

At the same time, I'd want to ensure that the game would be here in twenty years for the next generation of fans, and if that meant giving up part of my profits, that's okay.

You should never assume that everyone is motivated by money. First of all, after a certain point, where are you going to spend it all? Secondly, I don't need a fifty room mansion to be happy. So, if I make a healthy profit and I'm doing good things for everyone, that is motivation enough for me.[/QB][/QUOTE]

so joshuaaaa, you mean to tell me you can honestly say that as the owner of a team, a team you spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $100-200 million dollars or more to buy, that you'd be content to watch your profit margins dwindle just so that the game would be around in twenty years?

is that what you're saying?

i'm just curious, because if that's how you ran your team then you'd be very lucky to run a successful organization.

face facts...baseball is motivated by money...pure and simple. the yankees spend 100+ million dollars a year on salary because they can. if all the other teams in baseball could spend that much they would in a heartbeat, no matter what lip service they might give the media. people only complain about the yankees because they're successful at spending their money, unlike the dodgers, orioles and red sox (not to mention others)

joshuaaaaaa · 04-08-2002, 05:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zsommers:

so joshuaaaa, you mean to tell me you can honestly say that as the owner of a team, a team you spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $100-200 million dollars or more to buy, that you'd be content to watch your profit margins dwindle just so that the game would be around in twenty years?

<hr /></blockquote>Of course not. That wouldn't be sound business. However, if I still made a good return on my money (and I have no idea what that means in percentage terms because I've never owned a MLB team), I'd be willing to sacrifice some of my bottom line for the betterment of everyone.

I'm not pure, by any means. And I'd want to field a winning club. I'd want to win the World Series every year. Which owner doesn't? However, I'd be willing to attempt to do that on a more level playing field than the one that exists now. No, I wouldn't be willing to win "at any cost." I play my life win-win whenever possible, not win-lose. And, if you can't accept that, that's okay. Its not my job to convince you my way is better than yours. Its my job to live my life by my principles.

If Steinbrenner is such a genius, then wouldn't he still be a genius if the Yankees payroll was the same as everyone else's?

Under the current financial structure, Steinbrenner is doing exactly what he should be doing. Spending his money to get the best product possible, and spending it freely. I have no problem with that at all. As has been pointed out, any owner in that situation should do the same thing.

My problem is that he's one of the owners totally against any sort of salary cap, against any sort of arrangement that would make the financial health of MLB better. If he said "Okay, lets talk about a salary cap", I think lots of owners would fall in line behind him and that a better situation for everyone would result in the long term.

It reminds me of watching my nephews play Magic: The Gathering. My older nephew took great joy in demolishing his younger brother on a regular basis...of course, the fact that my older nephew had much better cards and more money to spend on new cards had nothing to do with it, right?

Split the cards evenly, then we'll see who the better player is.

Edit: Clarified things about 'purity'

[ 04-08-2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: joshuaaaaaa ]

Geiiga · 04-08-2002, 06:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Highlander:
3B-Scott Brosius-another trade but again nowhere near the best in the game....LF-Chuck Knoblauch<hr /></blockquote>Brosius was considered one of the rising stars in the league when the Yankees got ahold of him. Yeah, he hit .203 the year before they traded for him, but the year prior to that, he hit .304. As for Knoblauch, he played four years in the pinstripes. Didn't hit his career batting average once (note that that's the career average after the four years). Now he's with Kansas City, because the Yankees got tired of him.

Also, I didn't think they were 'evil' when they sucked. I was just happy to see them lose. When they lost 5-0 in a no-hitter--that their own pitcher threw--that just made my year. I'd love to see a return to those days, because I am, and always have been, a Yankee-hater.

JML · 04-08-2002, 08:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by joshuaaaaaa:

My problem is that he's one of the owners totally against any sort of salary cap, against any sort of arrangement that would make the financial health of MLB better. If he said "Okay, lets talk about a salary cap", I think lots of owners would fall in line behind him and that a better situation for everyone would result in the long term.

<hr /></blockquote>Joshua(x6) makes a good point. So does Costas in "Fair Ball" (some of you knew it was coming

):

Baseball is not a business like every other. In other businesses, it is in your best interest to crush the competition. The less competition you have, the more money you can make. In baseball (and all team sports) you can't crush all of your competitors, because if you did, your marketplace would cease to exist. That's the whole idea of the "competitive balance" thing. You want to turn a profit literally ($$$) and figuratively (WS rings). But you can't do so at the expense of your competitors.

Steinbrenner knows that revenue sharing would hurt his profits literally ($$$) and a cap would hurt his profits figuratively (WS rings). He therefore will do what he can to make sure they don't happen. And that, my friends, is pure evil. And near-sighted to boot. Since he's the owner of the highest profile club in the largest market, he has the most pull in the baseball world. If he were interested in competitive balance (read: the health of baseball's future) he would use his gargantuan influence to try and level the playing field.

If I could, I would quote the whole book here. I can't, so read <a href="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=fair+ball+bob+costas&userid=18ETE8 F5B6&mscssid=1PMME7ARAA1J9N32VBTXA8MQAL80FMC5" target="_blank">Fair Ball</a>

[ 04-09-2002, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: JML ]

bigphesta · 04-09-2002, 01:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Draft Dodger:
and how's this for scary: that was (unintentionally) my 666th post...

"Posts: 666 | From: Keene, NH | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged "<hr /></blockquote>And by the looks of it, you're at 700 now (soon to increase) --- and this was in ONE day!

LAH · 04-09-2002, 04:03 AM

It is unfair to pick on the Yankees.

Jealousy is an ungly thing.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Cooleyvol · 04-09-2002, 04:11 AM

From an official "Gator Hater"--

That flag in your icon is UGLY!!

Hammer755 · 04-09-2002, 12:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JML:
If I could, I would quote the whole book here. I can't, so read <a href="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=fair+ball+bob+costas&userid=18ETE8 F5B6&mscssid=1PMME7ARAA1J9N32VBTXA8MQAL80FMC5" target="_blank">Fair Ball</a><hr /></blockquote>JML, I agree that Costas has by far the best solution to baseball's problems and there is zero chance of any of his suggestions coming to fruition. I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend George, but here goes. It's not his fault (alone) that baseball's finances are a wreck. For every Steinbrenner in MLB, there is someone like Carl Pohlad or Jeff Loria who makes money off their team and it goes directly into their pockets. At least George reinvests a significant portion of his proceeds back into the organization.

The most critical point that Costas brought out in Fair Ball to me was the structure of the salary cap. You have to have one on both ends. There must be on limiting teamss expenditures on players, but there also must be one that establishes a minimum amount an owner can spend on his team. This and some sort of revenue-sharing are the two biggest facets of Costas' argument to me.

[ 04-09-2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]

bamf909 · 04-09-2002, 12:32 PM

The Yankees are evil. Carl Pohlad is evil. Bud Selig is evil. just wanted to get that out of my system. oh, you know who else is evil- Dan Duquette. God bless the wonderful people who fired him.

GForce22 · 04-09-2002, 12:42 PM

Steinbrenner aside, my big problem lies more with Yankee "fans" than with the team. I don't believe in punishing success and I'm not the jealous type. The Yanks are a great organization that is run very intelligently, very efficiently and within the means of the system -- however screwed up it may be -- that baseball has in place.
It's the so-called Yankee fans that irritate me more than the team, for several reasons:

1) The belief they are entitled to everyone cow-towing to them. If you criticize any of their players on any point, they go crazy. This Cablevision thing is a perfect example. George decided to form his own network and struck deals with other cable providers. There is NOTHING wrong with that. However, there is also nothing wrong with Cablevision saying "thanks, but no thanks." The ridiculous notion that Yankee fans are entitled to their team so everyone else should have to pay for it is foolish. But in the Yankee universe, no other team, the good of the league, or anyone else matters. It's arrogance in its most blatant form.

2) Yankee "fans" would rather come to Shea to root against the Mets then watch their own team. Opening Day at Shea, Yankee fans all over the place, despite the fact that the Yanks first game was on TV (and Cablevision is actually a small percentage of the New York market). why weren't these die hard "fans" home watching/listening to their beloved Yankees?

3) It ties in with #2, but Steinbrenner's unwavering obsession with the 80's Mets. Reality is, the Yanks still have never captured New York like that group of Mets did. This has nothing to do with quality of team or anything like that, but that team captured this city like no other. Look at Steinbrenner going after ANYONE associated with that team...Sid Fernandez and Kevin Elster were invited to camp the past two years for goodness sake. It's funny to watch, because no matter what success the Yankees have, Steinbrenner will still ALWAYS be obsessed with the Mets.

4) Hyprocrisy. "He's a headhunter and everybody knows it, but he's Roger Clemens and he'll get away with it." - Joe Torre when Clemens was with the Blue Jays. "I've never seen Roger throw at anybody."-after he beaned Piazza. Zimmer crying about "how could Piazza know" if Clemens threw at him, only Roger could know, but Zimmer crying and ranting any time someone hits a Yankee.

5) Lack of class. Hmmm...I'm finding more Yankee organization things as I go...from Steinbrenner's handling of Winfield, to the ways he dealt with Chris Chambliss, Bob Watson, Yogi Berra and others. Their heritage is a band of drunks from Ruth to Mantle to Billy Martin, who get held up as these heroes. Disgusting.

6) Most Yankee "fans" are bandwagoners who are called by other Yankee fans who have been there through it all "98'ers." It's a known factor.

7) People root for the Yanks because it's easy. It requires no heart, no commitment. If they lose, you just say "26 rings" and make yourself feel better. You root for the team with the safety blanket, the easy way out. That's not the case for all, but a LOT of Yankee fans I met, talk with them and ask them about anyone other than the big names and they haven't a clue.

This all being said...the Yanks are not evil. They are playing under the framework of a game that is being run terribly. But they are doing nothing wrong until the rules change.

GH

joshuaaaaaa · 04-09-2002, 02:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hammer755:
JML, I agree that Costas has by far the best solution to baseball's problems and there is zero chance of any of his suggestions coming to fruition. I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend George, but here goes. It's not his fault (alone) that baseball's finances are a wreck. For every Steinbrenner in MLB, there is someone like Carl Pohlad or Jeff Loria who makes money off their team and it goes directly into their pockets. At least George reinvests a significant portion of his proceeds back into the organization.

The most critical point that Costas brought out in Fair Ball to me was the structure of the salary cap. You have to have one on both ends. There must be on limiting teamss expenditures on players, but there also must be one that establishes a minimum amount an owner can spend on his team. This and some sort of revenue-sharing are the two biggest facets of Costas' argument to me.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with that 100%. Giving money to the poor teams is pointless if all that happens is the owner puts the money in his pocket. MLB would have to establish some sort of guidelines on how revenue sharing money must be spent or, in the case of a salary cap, establish a minimum salary, too. There could definitely be some leeway, maybe $20 million between minimum and maximum salary.

The idea is to have 30 competitive teams, not 8 competitive and 22 space fillers. Unless all 30 owners wake up one morning and have an epiphany, its gonna be a long time until it happens...which sucks...much like the Orioles (and I can say that because I'm an O's fan).

Draft Dodger · 04-09-2002, 03:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bigphesta:
And by the looks of it, you're at 700 now (soon to increase) --- and this was in ONE day!<hr /></blockquote>I Love my job.

Ardent Enthusiast · 04-09-2002, 04:15 PM

definitely...

Spielman · 04-11-2002, 05:17 AM

In a real sense, no, they're not. They're simply a team with all the advantages that has been very smart in making the most of them.

Emotionally, of course the Yankees are evil. Eeeeeeeevil.

FastLane · 04-11-2002, 06:41 AM

Of course, when you say 'evil' you have to say it "eee-ville"...

like Dr. Evil, yeah...that's the ticket!

CMH · 04-11-2002, 06:45 AM

wateva anybody has to say about yankee fans go ahead and say it, b/c personally i hate those yankee fans as well. and i'm talkin about the ones that talk too much garbage and say dumb things like 26 rings or wateva. I'm a real yankee fan. you dont have to believe me, and thats fine with me (well actually not b/c i hate being told i'm not a real fan when i know i am) Granted i havent been a yankee fan forever. I have told everybody the truth so they understand my story. I never really watched baseball growing up. i only wanted to play it and didnt care who was playing. I collected cards to know the players and wat they did, but didnt care if a game was on tv. I didnt start watching baseball games till 1993. The Yankee were the only team available being that i was in the BRonx and i started to watch their games. I became a fan. I loved Don Mattingly and alot of the other players. I got really serious into it in 1994 and was really disappointed when the season got cut short, b/c it was my real full time season in which i actually paid attention. now from wat i remember, the yankees werent winning much games in 1993. so i didnt become a fan b/c of their winning ways. I didnt even know how many championships they had till i researched it afterwards (i usually do that stuff when i get into somethin, the yankees were no different) so i started learning the history, the players, the times, wateva about them and i became a real fan. I was around when we were filling only 2 million a season. and it botherd me that all of a sudden in 1998 the yanks fill 3 million seats. i was like, where were they before that? then all of a sudden people walked around sayin YANKEES WOOOO! and all that. and once again, i thought where was that before this year? so i hate alot of yankee fans b/c they arent true fans. i didnt follow them in the 80s so i didnt go through ALL the hard times, but like i said before, i didnt watch baseball at all so its not like that should be held against me. i became a fan at a time the yanks were not doin well so i know in my heart i'm a fan b/c they are from the bronx, they are my home team, and i wanna cheer for them. thats why i'm a REAL Yankee fan and thats why i like them.

04-08-2002, 02:34 PM	#21
joshuaaaaaa All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 633	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cooleyvol: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by joshuaaaaaa: I do call it evil when you know a salary cap would be a good thing for the game as a whole and you don't care because you like spending $115 million on your payroll.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">joshuaaaaaa, No offense, but that makes NO sense at all! I suppose if you owned the Yankees, or any other team, for that matter, you wouldnt spend all the money at your disposal in order to win just because you wanted the league to have parity and a salary cap? Thats bulls#it!! You'd spend every dime you had to win a WS and you know it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm glad you know how I think. Too bad you're wrong. There's no question I'd want to make a healthy profit and I'd want a good team on the field. At the same time, I'd want to ensure that the game would be here in twenty years for the next generation of fans, and if that meant giving up part of my profits, that's okay. You should never assume that everyone is motivated by money. First of all, after a certain point, where are you going to spend it all? Secondly, I don't need a fifty room mansion to be happy. So, if I make a healthy profit and I'm doing good things for everyone, that is motivation enough for me. __________________ Baltimore Monarchs-GUBA Baltimore Orioles-ORB2 "One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do." ~Henry Ford ~

04-08-2002, 03:09 PM	#22
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	I don't hate the Spanks but they do in fact lick balls. Cheers Rich __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

04-08-2002, 04:53 PM	#24
zsommers Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: wisconsin Posts: 70	qb][/QUOTE]Well, I'm glad you know how I think. Too bad you're wrong. There's no question I'd want to make a healthy profit and I'd want a good team on the field. At the same time, I'd want to ensure that the game would be here in twenty years for the next generation of fans, and if that meant giving up part of my profits, that's okay. You should never assume that everyone is motivated by money. First of all, after a certain point, where are you going to spend it all? Secondly, I don't need a fifty room mansion to be happy. So, if I make a healthy profit and I'm doing good things for everyone, that is motivation enough for me.[/QB][/QUOTE] so joshuaaaa, you mean to tell me you can honestly say that as the owner of a team, a team you spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $100-200 million dollars or more to buy, that you'd be content to watch your profit margins dwindle just so that the game would be around in twenty years? is that what you're saying? i'm just curious, because if that's how you ran your team then you'd be very lucky to run a successful organization. face facts...baseball is motivated by money...pure and simple. the yankees spend 100+ million dollars a year on salary because they can. if all the other teams in baseball could spend that much they would in a heartbeat, no matter what lip service they might give the media. people only complain about the yankees because they're successful at spending their money, unlike the dodgers, orioles and red sox (not to mention others) __________________ <a href=http://www.fhockey.com/WBL/home.shtml>WBL</a> New York Mets

04-08-2002, 05:04 PM	#25
joshuaaaaaa All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 633	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zsommers: <strong> so joshuaaaa, you mean to tell me you can honestly say that as the owner of a team, a team you spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $100-200 million dollars or more to buy, that you'd be content to watch your profit margins dwindle just so that the game would be around in twenty years? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not. That wouldn't be sound business. However, if I still made a good return on my money (and I have no idea what that means in percentage terms because I've never owned a MLB team), I'd be willing to sacrifice some of my bottom line for the betterment of everyone. I'm not pure, by any means. And I'd want to field a winning club. I'd want to win the World Series every year. Which owner doesn't? However, I'd be willing to attempt to do that on a more level playing field than the one that exists now. No, I wouldn't be willing to win "at any cost." I play my life win-win whenever possible, not win-lose. And, if you can't accept that, that's okay. Its not my job to convince you my way is better than yours. Its my job to live my life by my principles. If Steinbrenner is such a genius, then wouldn't he still be a genius if the Yankees payroll was the same as everyone else's? Under the current financial structure, Steinbrenner is doing exactly what he should be doing. Spending his money to get the best product possible, and spending it freely. I have no problem with that at all. As has been pointed out, any owner in that situation should do the same thing. My problem is that he's one of the owners totally against any sort of salary cap, against any sort of arrangement that would make the financial health of MLB better. If he said "Okay, lets talk about a salary cap", I think lots of owners would fall in line behind him and that a better situation for everyone would result in the long term. It reminds me of watching my nephews play Magic: The Gathering. My older nephew took great joy in demolishing his younger brother on a regular basis...of course, the fact that my older nephew had much better cards and more money to spend on new cards had nothing to do with it, right? Split the cards evenly, then we'll see who the better player is. Edit: Clarified things about 'purity' <small>[ 04-08-2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: joshuaaaaaa ]</small> __________________ Baltimore Monarchs-GUBA Baltimore Orioles-ORB2 "One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do." ~Henry Ford ~

04-08-2002, 06:17 PM	#26
Geiiga Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 195	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Highlander: <strong>3B-Scott Brosius-another trade but again nowhere near the best in the game....LF-Chuck Knoblauch</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brosius was considered one of the rising stars in the league when the Yankees got ahold of him. Yeah, he hit .203 the year before they traded for him, but the year prior to that, he hit .304. As for Knoblauch, he played four years in the pinstripes. Didn't hit his career batting average once (note that that's the career average after the four years). Now he's with Kansas City, because the Yankees got tired of him. Also, I didn't think they were 'evil' when they sucked. I was just happy to see them lose. When they lost 5-0 in a no-hitter--that their own pitcher threw--that just made my year. I'd love to see a return to those days, because I am, and always have been, a Yankee-hater. __________________

04-08-2002, 04:22 PM	#23
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	So, if you can make a profit and field a decent team, you'll be happy? You wouldnt last long as a GM and even less time as a manager. I thought the name of the game was winning. As far as the game "being here" in twenty years......have no fear, this is baseball we're talking about. It'll always be here......it would take more than Steinbrenner to bring it down. This is all "green-eyed jealousy of the Yank's winning. I didnt hear folks yelling about the Yankees being the "anti-Christ" a few years ago when they weren't winning. I only hear it now. This all stems from the fact that the players who MADE baseball way back in the EARLY 1900s wore the pinstripes. Face it, if it werent for the Yankee teams of baseball's early years, the game wouldnt hold the mystique and place in American culture that it does today. Joshuaaaaaa, say what you won't but you'll never make me believe that you are so "pure" that you wouldnt win at any cost. Any owner or GM in the league would do EXACTLY what Steinbrenner does/has done in order to win. Hell, Ted Turner tried to, but he wasnt near as smart as 'Ol George. George spends alot of money, but he spends it on guys who produce as they should. Spending money, in and of itself, doesnt win pennants. Spending money WISELY does.

04-08-2002, 08:25 PM	#27
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by joshuaaaaaa: <strong> My problem is that he's one of the owners totally against any sort of salary cap, against any sort of arrangement that would make the financial health of MLB better. If he said "Okay, lets talk about a salary cap", I think lots of owners would fall in line behind him and that a better situation for everyone would result in the long term. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Joshua(x6) makes a good point. So does Costas in "Fair Ball" (some of you knew it was coming ): Baseball is not a business like every other. In other businesses, it is in your best interest to crush the competition. The less competition you have, the more money you can make. In baseball (and all team sports) you can't crush all of your competitors, because if you did, your marketplace would cease to exist. That's the whole idea of the "competitive balance" thing. You want to turn a profit literally ($$$) and figuratively (WS rings). But you can't do so at the expense of your competitors. Steinbrenner knows that revenue sharing would hurt his profits literally ($$$) and a cap would hurt his profits figuratively (WS rings). He therefore will do what he can to make sure they don't happen. And that, my friends, is pure evil. And near-sighted to boot. Since he's the owner of the highest profile club in the largest market, he has the most pull in the baseball world. If he were interested in competitive balance (read: the health of baseball's future) he would use his gargantuan influence to try and level the playing field. If I could, I would quote the whole book here. I can't, so read <a href="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=fair+ball+bob+costas&userid=18ETE8 F5B6&mscssid=1PMME7ARAA1J9N32VBTXA8MQAL80FMC5" target="_blank">Fair Ball</a> <small>[ 04-09-2002, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: JML ]</small>

04-09-2002, 01:58 AM	#28
bigphesta Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 1,366	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Draft Dodger: <strong>and how's this for scary: that was (unintentionally) my 666th post... "Posts: 666 \| From: Keene, NH \| Registered: Dec 2001 \| IP: Logged "</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And by the looks of it, you're at 700 now (soon to increase) --- and this was in ONE day!

04-09-2002, 04:03 AM	#29
LAH Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Field of Screams Posts: 445	It is unfair to pick on the Yankees. Jealousy is an ungly thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ The Captain

04-09-2002, 04:11 AM	#30
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	From an official "Gator Hater"-- That flag in your icon is UGLY!!

04-09-2002, 12:02 PM	#31
Hammer755 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,348	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JML: <strong>If I could, I would quote the whole book here. I can't, so read <a href="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=fair+ball+bob+costas&userid=18ETE8 F5B6&mscssid=1PMME7ARAA1J9N32VBTXA8MQAL80FMC5" target="_blank">Fair Ball</a></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JML, I agree that Costas has by far the best solution to baseball's problems and there is zero chance of any of his suggestions coming to fruition. I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend George, but here goes. It's not his fault (alone) that baseball's finances are a wreck. For every Steinbrenner in MLB, there is someone like Carl Pohlad or Jeff Loria who makes money off their team and it goes directly into their pockets. At least George reinvests a significant portion of his proceeds back into the organization. The most critical point that Costas brought out in Fair Ball to me was the structure of the salary cap. You have to have one on both ends. There must be on limiting teamss expenditures on players, but there also must be one that establishes a minimum amount an owner can spend on his team. This and some sort of revenue-sharing are the two biggest facets of Costas' argument to me. <small>[ 04-09-2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]</small>

04-09-2002, 12:32 PM	#32
bamf909 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: fargo, nd Posts: 34	The Yankees are evil. Carl Pohlad is evil. Bud Selig is evil. just wanted to get that out of my system. oh, you know who else is evil- Dan Duquette. God bless the wonderful people who fired him. __________________ save the expos!

04-09-2002, 12:42 PM	#33
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Steinbrenner aside, my big problem lies more with Yankee "fans" than with the team. I don't believe in punishing success and I'm not the jealous type. The Yanks are a great organization that is run very intelligently, very efficiently and within the means of the system -- however screwed up it may be -- that baseball has in place. It's the so-called Yankee fans that irritate me more than the team, for several reasons: 1) The belief they are entitled to everyone cow-towing to them. If you criticize any of their players on any point, they go crazy. This Cablevision thing is a perfect example. George decided to form his own network and struck deals with other cable providers. There is NOTHING wrong with that. However, there is also nothing wrong with Cablevision saying "thanks, but no thanks." The ridiculous notion that Yankee fans are entitled to their team so everyone else should have to pay for it is foolish. But in the Yankee universe, no other team, the good of the league, or anyone else matters. It's arrogance in its most blatant form. 2) Yankee "fans" would rather come to Shea to root against the Mets then watch their own team. Opening Day at Shea, Yankee fans all over the place, despite the fact that the Yanks first game was on TV (and Cablevision is actually a small percentage of the New York market). why weren't these die hard "fans" home watching/listening to their beloved Yankees? 3) It ties in with #2, but Steinbrenner's unwavering obsession with the 80's Mets. Reality is, the Yanks still have never captured New York like that group of Mets did. This has nothing to do with quality of team or anything like that, but that team captured this city like no other. Look at Steinbrenner going after ANYONE associated with that team...Sid Fernandez and Kevin Elster were invited to camp the past two years for goodness sake. It's funny to watch, because no matter what success the Yankees have, Steinbrenner will still ALWAYS be obsessed with the Mets. 4) Hyprocrisy. "He's a headhunter and everybody knows it, but he's Roger Clemens and he'll get away with it." - Joe Torre when Clemens was with the Blue Jays. "I've never seen Roger throw at anybody."-after he beaned Piazza. Zimmer crying about "how could Piazza know" if Clemens threw at him, only Roger could know, but Zimmer crying and ranting any time someone hits a Yankee. 5) Lack of class. Hmmm...I'm finding more Yankee organization things as I go...from Steinbrenner's handling of Winfield, to the ways he dealt with Chris Chambliss, Bob Watson, Yogi Berra and others. Their heritage is a band of drunks from Ruth to Mantle to Billy Martin, who get held up as these heroes. Disgusting. 6) Most Yankee "fans" are bandwagoners who are called by other Yankee fans who have been there through it all "98'ers." It's a known factor. 7) People root for the Yanks because it's easy. It requires no heart, no commitment. If they lose, you just say "26 rings" and make yourself feel better. You root for the team with the safety blanket, the easy way out. That's not the case for all, but a LOT of Yankee fans I met, talk with them and ask them about anyone other than the big names and they haven't a clue. This all being said...the Yanks are not evil. They are playing under the framework of a game that is being run terribly. But they are doing nothing wrong until the rules change. GH

04-09-2002, 02:40 PM	#34
joshuaaaaaa All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 633	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hammer755: <strong>JML, I agree that Costas has by far the best solution to baseball's problems and there is zero chance of any of his suggestions coming to fruition. I can't believe I'm actually gonna defend George, but here goes. It's not his fault (alone) that baseball's finances are a wreck. For every Steinbrenner in MLB, there is someone like Carl Pohlad or Jeff Loria who makes money off their team and it goes directly into their pockets. At least George reinvests a significant portion of his proceeds back into the organization. The most critical point that Costas brought out in Fair Ball to me was the structure of the salary cap. You have to have one on both ends. There must be on limiting teamss expenditures on players, but there also must be one that establishes a minimum amount an owner can spend on his team. This and some sort of revenue-sharing are the two biggest facets of Costas' argument to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with that 100%. Giving money to the poor teams is pointless if all that happens is the owner puts the money in his pocket. MLB would have to establish some sort of guidelines on how revenue sharing money must be spent or, in the case of a salary cap, establish a minimum salary, too. There could definitely be some leeway, maybe $20 million between minimum and maximum salary. The idea is to have 30 competitive teams, not 8 competitive and 22 space fillers. Unless all 30 owners wake up one morning and have an epiphany, its gonna be a long time until it happens...which sucks...much like the Orioles (and I can say that because I'm an O's fan). __________________ Baltimore Monarchs-GUBA Baltimore Orioles-ORB2 "One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do." ~Henry Ford ~

04-09-2002, 03:43 PM	#35
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bigphesta: <strong>And by the looks of it, you're at 700 now (soon to increase) --- and this was in ONE day!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I Love my job. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

04-09-2002, 04:15 PM	#36
Ardent Enthusiast Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Great Lakes, IL Posts: 77	definitely...

04-11-2002, 05:17 AM	#37
Spielman All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,668	In a real sense, no, they're not. They're simply a team with all the advantages that has been very smart in making the most of them. Emotionally, of course the Yankees are evil. Eeeeeeeevil. __________________ Spielman was at one time the smartest person on these boards. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...martest+Person I don't believe in AnotherAlias.

04-11-2002, 06:41 AM	#38
FastLane Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 465	Of course, when you say 'evil' you have to say it "eee-ville"... like Dr. Evil, yeah...that's the ticket! __________________ You know it's summertime at Candlestick when the fog rolls in, the wind kicks up, and you see the center fielder slicing open a caribou to survive the ninth inning. ~Bob Sarlette Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax. ~Mike Royko

04-11-2002, 06:45 AM	#39
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	wateva anybody has to say about yankee fans go ahead and say it, b/c personally i hate those yankee fans as well. and i'm talkin about the ones that talk too much garbage and say dumb things like 26 rings or wateva. I'm a real yankee fan. you dont have to believe me, and thats fine with me (well actually not b/c i hate being told i'm not a real fan when i know i am) Granted i havent been a yankee fan forever. I have told everybody the truth so they understand my story. I never really watched baseball growing up. i only wanted to play it and didnt care who was playing. I collected cards to know the players and wat they did, but didnt care if a game was on tv. I didnt start watching baseball games till 1993. The Yankee were the only team available being that i was in the BRonx and i started to watch their games. I became a fan. I loved Don Mattingly and alot of the other players. I got really serious into it in 1994 and was really disappointed when the season got cut short, b/c it was my real full time season in which i actually paid attention. now from wat i remember, the yankees werent winning much games in 1993. so i didnt become a fan b/c of their winning ways. I didnt even know how many championships they had till i researched it afterwards (i usually do that stuff when i get into somethin, the yankees were no different) so i started learning the history, the players, the times, wateva about them and i became a real fan. I was around when we were filling only 2 million a season. and it botherd me that all of a sudden in 1998 the yanks fill 3 million seats. i was like, where were they before that? then all of a sudden people walked around sayin YANKEES WOOOO! and all that. and once again, i thought where was that before this year? so i hate alot of yankee fans b/c they arent true fans. i didnt follow them in the 80s so i didnt go through ALL the hard times, but like i said before, i didnt watch baseball at all so its not like that should be held against me. i became a fan at a time the yanks were not doin well so i know in my heart i'm a fan b/c they are from the bronx, they are my home team, and i wanna cheer for them. thats why i'm a REAL Yankee fan and thats why i like them.