Matt Carpenter

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Orcin

It is unrealistic to think that every pitcher should be able to throw 150 pitches in a game. Every pitcher wasn’t able to do that in the 70’s either.

As a little leaguer in the late '60's, I came to the little league field for a game. I was told by the lady keeping score that in the previous game, I had thrown a no-hitter! GREAT! ... be we had lost 7-6. I walked more than a dozen, and struck out 17. There is no doubt in my mind that I threw 200 pitches that day.

I clearly remember how sore my arm was the next day, and this was 50 years ago. I couldn't even lift it. This was back in an era where a pitcher tried to finish the game, every time.

I believe that there is a percentage of pitchers, even now, that could do a "Nolan Ryan", and throw and throw and throw. I think the percentage is probably 20% or less.

The rest of the pitchers blow out there arm, and are done. I could show you hundreds of pitchers, in MLB history, that started their careers strong, and were done in four years.

Pitchers now, with pitch counts of 80 or so, ARE being looked after, carefully. A good young pitcher is a valuable thing, and teams are very, VERY careful with keeping them out of harms way.

Too careful? Opinions vary..but when I see a pitcher throwing a no-hitter, and his count is 116, I am conflicted. It's a once in a lifetime thing, and I would risk it.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

I'm sorry, but if guys can't even make it to 150 pitches in a game, there needs to be a serious rethink about how they're being coached and trained. Seriously, this is getting a bit ridiculous.

You do realize that it's been 13 years since a pitcher threw 150 pitches, Livan Hernandez on 6/3/05, right?

Prior to that, it was another 5 years, Ron Villone 9/29/00

It's happened once in the last 18 years lol



And when it did happen, guess how hard Livan pitched in that game?

He didn't hit 88 on the gun once!

When guys did threw 150 pitches per game (outside of rare guys like Nolan Ryan), they didn't throw 95+, Poncedeleon averaged 93.7 on Monday's game.


Time to get with the times my friend, if you want guys throwing 150 pitches in a game, then be prepared for low 80's fastballs, no bullpens, and an insane run scoring environment.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Orcin

It is unrealistic to think that every pitcher should be able to throw 150 pitches in a game. Every pitcher wasn’t able to do that in the 70’s either.

In fact, it literally only happened 8 times in the entire decade of the 70's

Woodie Fryman 7/12/75 (164 pitches, the highest of the decade)
John Montefusco 8/13/75
Dan Warthen 8/13/75 (against Montefusco)
Steve Rogers 8/15/75
Steve Rogers 8/19/75
Jim Barr 9/24/75
Woodie Fryman 6/8/76
Steve Dunning 8/7/76


Koufax did it the most of anyone all time, 16 times. Which could explain part of his arm problems and early retirement....just speculating of course.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

I don't mean EVERY game...just once or twice a year, at a maximum. And still, 120 shouldn't be that hard on a somewhat regular basis. I mean, what is with these guys? What did pitchers in the 1980s and before have that they don't? You'd think, with this generation of pitchers being bigger and stronger than the guys back then, they could pitch a complete game without that much difficulty.


I'm just glad I was around for John Tudor's ten shutouts in 1985, because that is never going to be repeated.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

I don't mean EVERY game...just once or twice a year. I mean, what is with these guys? What did pitchers in the 1980s and before have that they don't? You'd think, with this generation of pitchers being bigger and stronger than the guys back then, they could pitch a complete game without that much difficulty.


I'm just glad I was around for John Tudor's ten shutouts in 1985, because that is never going to be repeated.

They didn't throw 98


Cliff Lee had 6 in 2011, and James Shields pitched into the 9th 11 times in 2011. Roy Halladay did it 10 times in 2009, CC 10 times in 2008, SChilling 11 times in 1998, Scott Erickson 10 times in 1998, Pedro 13 times in 1997

It can happen, but Tudor wasn't exactly a hard thrower either

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

In fact, it literally only happened 8 times in the entire decade of the 70's

Woodie Fryman 7/12/75 (164 pitches, the highest of the decade)
John Montefusco 8/13/75
Dan Warthen 8/13/75 (against Montefusco)
Steve Rogers 8/15/75
Steve Rogers 8/19/75
Jim Barr 9/24/75
Woodie Fryman 6/8/76
Steve Dunning 8/7/76


Koufax did it the most of anyone all time, 16 times. Which could explain part of his arm problems and early retirement....just speculating of course.

It is possible this data is incomplete, I grabbed this from baseball reference play index, and I'm just now realizing that they may not have pitch data for all the games into the reference yet.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Maybe 6-man rotations are the way to go, then. If guys have to pitch in fewer games per season, maybe they can go the distance once in a while if they have more rest between starts? I don't know, I just think this kind of thing - taking guys out who are pitching no-hitters, a gajillion pitching changes per game - are part of why attendance is down. Something needs to be done.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

I'm sorry, but if guys can't even make it to 150 pitches in a game, there needs to be a serious rethink about how they're being coached and trained. Seriously, this is getting a bit ridiculous.

I've written a lot about this.. Respectfully, you're ignorant of what the shape of arms are when then get to the bigs...and what mileage is on them, and how much harder kids...KIDS...throw now than they ever did. I'm not going to go find the post on it, but I wrote a big explanation about it. Pitch counts are the treatment and solution to a problem that has zero to do with professional sports and everything to do with parents and coaches of 8 year olds all the way up through college.


I know of what I write. This isn't some uninformed opinion. It's truth.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

I definitely agree that young kids are throwing way too much, and helicopter parents are the worst thing to happen to sports in years. It's a damned shame, but you're right, it is what it is, sadly.

[Jeffy25]

Kids need to be playing multiple sports. Not just pitching every 5th day.

Great pitchers are great athletes.