Chipper, Vlad, Hoff & Thome make the HOF

[The Game]

Originally Posted by David Watts

It would never happen, but how cool would it be if some player that really didn't give a hoot, stood at the podium during his induction speech and said, I used steroids from 1995-2002, but I'm in, so what y'all going to do about it?

Would love to see that because is there anything the HOF can do about it? While i am 100% against Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Manny & A-Fraud going in knowing what we know now. At that point there will be no choice but to let them in along with rose & Shoeless Joe. Really tired of guys speculating who might have used who have made it.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Jerry Helper

This is another thing I don't get. It is always astonishing to realize how many people think character should be a part of the election process. Talk about simple minds.

The idea that any of us really know who is a good man or not is crazy. A guy might seem nice, treats reporters well, and signs for fans, but you have no idea if that guy beats his wife or does any number of reprehensible acts. In 1993, we all would have said that OJ Simpson was a quality human being. We all would have been wrong, we just didn't know it.

Keep this stuff strictly baseball related. Was the guy a great player or not? this "i think he's a good human being, therefore he gets a nod" is just insane. Also, it's a moot point. Cap Anson is a hall of famer. There are schools of thought that say that Tris Speaker and Rogers Hornsby had connections with the Klan.

Enough pretending like we really know these guys. We don't. Keep it to what happened on the field.

(this isn't some sort of pro PED guy rant either, i'm speaking in general terms)

Bobby Cox beat his wife and he got in. Character does not matter to me. Steroids do.

On a side note heres what the 4 HOFers did in my game . Started in 1999.

[Jerry Helper]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Talk about baseball all you want. Just don't insult people while you're doing it. I love debate. But when you add insults, it turns to arguing.

I didn’t insult anyone here. I said that argument was foolish, no one here was saying this.

Either talk about the point of the thread or log off. Stop trying to pick a fight online, go to Reddit if that’s what you’re into

[swoboda]

Originally Posted by Jerry Helper

I didn’t insult anyone here. I said that argument was foolish, no one here was saying this.

Either talk about the point of the thread or log off. Stop trying to pick a fight online, go to Reddit if that’s what you’re into

This topic always stirs the passions, which I think is part of being a fan.

I am quite certain there was no insult intended, so let's chill and feel free to express our opinions....

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

For me I look more at if they are one of the greatest at their respected position. Kent, in my eyes, is one of the best at second base and there are not a lot of great second baseman.

On the other end, I look at Vlad and thing he had an amazing career but the competition for left field is a lot bigger.

I am a small hall guy and you really have to be among the best every at your position.

With that said, if Vlad getting in keeps bonds/clemens/sheffield/manny out then i'm all for it.

He wasn't better than Whitaker and Grich both need to be in before Kent gets in

[Jerry Helper]

Originally Posted by swoboda

This topic always stirs the passions, which I think is part of being a fan.

I am quite certain there was no insult intended, so let's chill and feel free to express our opinions....

Yes, I hope it was clear that my initial response to you wasn’t to combat your opinion. I didn’t feel like you stated one. It was just in response to what you saw from the guys on the mlb network. Sorry if that was confusing

[Cobra Mgr]

[snip]

On topic.......As The Game mentioned, I'm not for speculation either. Mike Piazza may have indeed done PED's, but there is no concrete evidence to say he did. I'm not keeping a guy out in that situation. But for I-Rod, Bonds, Rocket etc.....I feel a voter has to have standards. If you knowingly reward people who broke the rules of the game, what is that telling the ones who played to the best of their ability legally? What is that telling the next generation of players? There has to be a consequence for the choice to cheat. Or else the rules are pointless. If I was voting, I wouldn't waste time trying to speculate how much PED's helped. If they took them, intent is shown to unbalance the playing field. And the essential component for any competition is everybody starts on even footing. They've damaged the product.

[CONN CHRIS]

Please, no more back and forth sniping. It is not necessary. Thank you

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Please, no more back and forth sniping. It is not necessary. Thank you

I wouldn't call it sniping. But if you're going to edit my post, fairness says the person I was replying to should have his comments edited as well.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I wouldn't call it sniping. But if you're going to edit my post, fairness says the person I was replying to should have his comments edited as well.

Enough. Thanks.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

[snip]

On topic.......As The Game mentioned, I'm not for speculation either. Mike Piazza may have indeed done PED's, but there is no concrete evidence to say he did. I'm not keeping a guy out in that situation. But for I-Rod, Bonds, Rocket etc.....I feel a voter has to have standards. If you knowingly reward people who broke the rules of the game, what is that telling the ones who played to the best of their ability legally? What is that telling the next generation of players? There has to be a consequence for the choice to cheat. Or else the rules are pointless. If I was voting, I wouldn't waste time trying to speculate how much PED's helped. If they took them, intent is shown to unbalance the playing field. And the essential component for any competition is everybody starts on even footing. They've damaged the product.

We have the same amount of evidence on Piazza as we do Bonds and Clemens.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

He wasn't better than Whitaker and Grich both need to be in before Kent gets in

He has the most HR for any 2B. I dont care if he gets in or not. He's not Sandberg, Hornsby or Alomar so....

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

We have the same amount of evidence on Piazza as we do Bonds and Clemens.

I disagree with that. Bonds, Sosa, Manny, A-rod all have had their hats size increase over a period of time. Sosa is listed at 165 on bbref. Yet the Chicago Tribune listed him at 225 for the 1998 season saying he gained 25 lbs of muscle in the off season. Frank Thomas wore the same hat in 1990 as he did when he retired. I have no clue for Clemens. I am not hat size expert so its all just speculation. Piazza i am unsure on i cant find his hat size info from early in his career to when he was with the Mets.
With Bonds there is a clear difference in his appearance from 1992 to 1998. 2 of the people I listed have both been busted for PED use twice and have hat size increases over a short span.
We're not gonna really know until someone comes out and says who in the Hall used for sure. Until then I am all for keeping the main suspects out.
Mostly just venting.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by The Game

I disagree with that. Bonds, Sosa, Manny, A-rod all have had their hats size increase over a period of time. Sosa is listed at 165 on bbref. Yet the Chicago Tribune listed him at 225 for the 1998 season saying he gained 25 lbs of muscle in the off season. Frank Thomas wore the same hat in 1990 as he did when he retired. I have no clue for Clemens. I am not hat size expert so its all just speculation. Piazza i am unsure on i cant find his hat size info from early in his career to when he was with the Mets.
With Bonds there is a clear difference in his appearance from 1992 to 1998. 2 of the people I listed have both been busted for PED use twice and have hat size increases over a short span.
We're not gonna really know until someone comes out and says who in the Hall used for sure. Until then I am all for keeping the main suspects out.
Mostly just venting.

Piazza was the last pick of the draft (and as a favor to his dad) and then is rookie of the year?

And Piazza gained a ton of weight

He was sub 200 pounds as a rookie.


These aren't evidence, and we have the same evidence by each player.

I don't need to show you the photos of how much bigger Piazza was in 2000 than he was in 1990.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

We have the same amount of evidence on Piazza as we do Bonds and Clemens.

Piazza never had HGH mailed to his wife nor admitted to regularly taking a "clear" steroid or was named in the MItchell report or had a teammate/business partner blow the whistle on him in court that he used PED's. Your statement is as false as a unicorn having Bigfoot's baby.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

a unicorn having Bigfoot's baby.

It could happen

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Would love to see which direction public opinion would go in such a case.

Good question. From what I remember, when Eagleson got the boot, the reaction from the public was pretty much a lacklustre "Good.",

[Jerry Helper]

It's just so hard to know who did what. At this point, it seems almost naive to assume that all but a very few stars from that era weren't juicing. There are the obvious ones who literally morphed into different human beings, like Bonds, Sosa and Brett Boone. But then there countless guys who publicly failed tests or who were named in the 2003 drug tests who never really had a body transformation. I'm not sure that just because someone didn't turn into the hulk it means that they never juiced. Look at someone like Andy Pettitte.

I guess I'm just a cynic after watching player after player lie about this, only to be proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Bonds, ARod, Clemens, McGwire, even someone like Braun from the later years. It's hard not to look at any eye popping numbers from the 90s or early 00s and wonder. I'm sure people will disagree with this, but what about someone like Luis Gonzalez in 2001? This is a guy who never hit more than 31 home runs in a season, who suddenly hit 57, a mark only 4 other men had ever hit in the history of baseball before the steroid era. And he hit it the same year Bonds hit 73 and Sosa hit over 60? Cmon. You have to jump through more hoops to think that was a coincidence than to assume he was probably juiced.

Also, there will never be the amount of evidence on another player that compares with what Bonds has against him. And that's because Bonds had an entire book written about him by two investigative reporters. He was the best, so that's what happened. But I'm convinced that if two investigative reporters from a top tier newspaper decided to write a book on any of these other guys, they'd end up with the same proof. It's just that Bonds was the only one worth the time or money