Service Time limits questions

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

This is part of the reason it's good to set your minor league roster sizes to one or two above the real-life minimum. It helps with this issue, and it gives you leeway for rehab assignments, since OOTP counts rehabbing players toward the minor league roster number. In real life, they do not count.

Not any longer, fixed in v18 per Markus release\improvement post..

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

- Players in minor league rehab no longer count against minor league roster limits

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Not any longer, fixed in v18 per Markus release\improvement post..

Geez, I hadn't even noticed. My bad.

I still recommend setting limits one or two above the real life rules. It helps the AI handle rosters a bit better and gives the user some flexibility to deal with injuries.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

This is part of the reason it's good to set your minor league roster sizes to one or two above the real-life minimum. It helps with this issue, and it gives you leeway for rehab assignments, since OOTP counts rehabbing players toward the minor league roster number. In real life, they do not count.

It doesn’t count rehab assignment towards a roster spot in version 18

[homerj]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

This is part of the reason it's good to set your minor league roster sizes to one or two above the real-life minimum. It helps with this issue, and it gives you leeway for rehab assignments, since OOTP counts rehabbing players toward the minor league roster number. In real life, they do not count.

I tried, even with the matching AI roster strategies. I had a thread about it earlier, the solution that I ended up going with was just keeping them unlimited and then setting the AI roster rules.

[Situational_Lefty]

Ok, so I am thinking about going with these Roster Size Limits.

AAA ball - 27
AA ball - 27
High A - 27
Mid A - 27
Low A - 37
App and Pioneer Leagues - 37
Gulf and AZ Leagues - No limit

This give each level a couple of extra spots just in case. And I am hesitant to put a limit on the lowest leagues for now. As far as the service time limits, I am thinking about going with this...

AAA- no limit
AA- no limit
High A - 5
A Ball - 4
Low A - 3
Rookie - 2.

[NoOne]

your choice of service time limits is mostly arbitrary... they key is not to starve any particular level.

dynamics of draft is important to know. 2-5 players ouf of # of rounds you have will likely Not go to rookie league. these will go to short a and A ball right off the bat (sometimes higher too). ignore ~5 rounds of draft to be safe. so # of draft rounds spoken of below is actually # of rounds minus ~2-5. 5 to be safe. also, "service time" below is playable time as far as i use it... so 2 service time max is 3 years playable at that level.

early on the math is very easy. If you allow 2 years at rookie that means your # of draft rounds better be enough to fill the largest # of rookie teams a single MLB team has. So, Years * # of draft rounds (minus ~5 or so) and you are golden with that service time requirement. figure ~30 players above rookie and ~35 players per rookie team is a good goal per team (injuries and such - there are rarely mil fa that can play above short a-ball, btw). don't use roster limits unless designed for them very well.

short a will be very similar since it's still relatively undeveloped players. i'd stick to the same math, BUT relative to the service time max used for the level below, in this case "2" at rookie level. say it's "3" playable years at short a. 1 year's worth of draft minus about 5 better be enough to ~nearly fill the most short a teams held my any MLB team.. usually just 1.

each level it gets more complicated, though... not all players follow the restrictions, nor do you want that to occur.. hence the need to NOT starve any level. i said ~nearly fill in previous paragraph because those *players that inevitably dont go to Rookie ball can be in short a for 1,2,3 years in the example. that adds up. not all will advance in 1 year to aball, but assume most will since they are the 'better' college players most likely.

After short a it's very easy if # of teams reduces... ie 3 rookeis down to 2 A's per team ("the" max in league). you'd still want to ensure that enough players can fill that # of teams at A-ball relative to the # of years you enforce at Short A.

I used "3" above for short a... e.g. 5 would give ~2 years for most players going through your system at A-ball + advanced players that don't follow that typical path. same math, mostly... # of rounds * 2 (+extras, reduction of # of teams from rookie & SA to A-ball considerations) = enough to fill all teams in A ball?

(also start to consider 18 vs 22ish as starting age... do you want a 27year old in A-ball? i put an age limit at A-ball based on the oldest i want a college player to be allowed there.)

okay, that should be the idea... if you build it up logically, it will work... if oyu build it in a way that only ~20 players and a bunch of MiL FA trash are available for that league, you are scr&wed, guaranteed. you don't have to use my #'s, just the concept.

[homerj]

Originally Posted by Situational_Lefty

Ok, so I am thinking about going with these Roster Size Limits.

AAA ball - 27
AA ball - 27
High A - 27
Mid A - 27
Low A - 37
App and Pioneer Leagues - 37
Gulf and AZ Leagues - No limit

This give each level a couple of extra spots just in case. And I am hesitant to put a limit on the lowest leagues for now. As far as the service time limits, I am thinking about going with this...

AAA- no limit
AA- no limit
High A - 5
A Ball - 4
Low A - 3
Rookie - 2.

I found it better just use the AI settings for short A and below to give them 35 players(11 relief 19 position) and use the service time limits.

Although they are on the "active" list, just having unlimited also simulates the idea of the minor league reserve rosters. Maybe minor league reserve rosters is something that could be in for 19, then could also add in the minor league phases of the rule 5 draft.

[NoOne]

side note, i'd stay away fro roster limits... they actually cause the AI to fill to the Max any way possible... not always a good thing, especially if any level is starved due to setup. if the AI didn't do detrimental things due to them, i'd be all for using them

i made this post to give an example of a working system above, so that it was seperate from the "how-to" above.

i have a uniform system that makes it easier and less clumpy for a team that has fewer teams at any particular level... in that situation it WILL happen, nothing you can do about 80 players on a team when that mlb team has 1/2 a many Rookie-ball teams as the yankees etc.. it has to happen or the yankees 20 rookie teams won't have enough players

so, if not uniform you cannot expect a cookie-cutter look to # of players. even with uniform expect a 10-20 player swing per team in any single year, especially at rookie and short a levels. also, don't be afraid to adapt after you implement a system... e.g. i intend to do somethign about my "short a" stop below.

39round draft, 44 rounds of players created (~5 extra so that i still see both batters and pitchers at deep end of draft - availability, not quality of course)

Rookie - 2 teams per MLB
1 year service time max, so 2 playable years. (22 age max, optional)
Real-sim results: ~30-40 average per team, no shortages of a position etc

Short A - 1 team per MLB
3 year service time max, 4 years playable (23 age max, optional)
Results: ~30-50players... a bit clumpy here, but you need to go by the minimum # on any particular team.. potentially not enough of each position etc). i could probably drop this to 2 / 3 playable years and will test it out.

A-Ball - 2 teams per MLB
4 year service time max, 5 years playable (24 age max - start to use something a good idea, base on college kid ~age for A-ball - ie i give 2-3 years - not all are "22" etc, they can remain their while "24" too)
Results: ~30 per team

AA - 1 team per MLB
6 years service max, 7 years playable (26 age max, based on an 18 y.o. this time)
Results: 30-40 players per team

AAA - 1 per mlb
none/none
Results ~35-40 per team.

you need way more than ~25 at any level, in general. a) you will be short pitchers or a position or two on at least a few teams and b) it will force 'better' players to move along your system based on age/service time as opposed to what they do on the field, because the system is starved and needs that player at A-ball instead of wherever they "should" be, otherwise.

except at short a, there's 2 years at each stop and the # of rounds per year with all other relative considerations taken into account provides enough 'base' players at each level as well as prevents aged palyers at lower levels etc etc. better prospects easily float through at their own pace.

roster limits doesn't fix the problem, it will exascerbate it in most situations.

it doesn't have to be the same system as above to work.. many ways to get it done. make sure there is enough crap players at each level -- the mil lifers that, at best, can be a spot injury fill-in at the ML level. those guys go through step-by-step. make sure there are enough of "those" players so that the good ones CAN ignore any age or service time requirements.

i haven't tried defining sp/rp/position players for the mil system, as of yet. based on how other things work inthe ai, i'd be really wary of forcing its hand to do anything. it probably runs better if you focus on providing enough of each position per level based on draft and rules and let the extras fall where they may. less likely to restrict the 'better' players that are all that really matter anyway. one more reason they get held at short a becaue that team requires 19 pitchers and the draft doesn't provide enough based on rules so, all hands on deck, so to speak for those that meet the requirements

[Situational_Lefty]

Originally Posted by NoOne

your choice of service time limits is mostly arbitrary... they key is not to starve any particular level.

dynamics of draft is important to know. 2-5 players ouf of # of rounds you have will likely Not go to rookie league. these will go to short a and A ball right off the bat (sometimes higher too). ignore ~5 rounds of draft to be safe. so # of draft rounds spoken of below is actually # of rounds minus ~2-5. 5 to be safe. also, "service time" below is playable time as far as i use it... so 2 service time max is 3 years playable at that level.

early on the math is very easy. If you allow 2 years at rookie that means your # of draft rounds better be enough to fill the largest # of rookie teams a single MLB team has. So, Years * # of draft rounds (minus ~5 or so) and you are golden with that service time requirement. figure ~30 players above rookie and ~35 players per rookie team is a good goal per team (injuries and such - there are rarely mil fa that can play above short a-ball, btw). don't use roster limits unless designed for them very well.

short a will be very similar since it's still relatively undeveloped players. i'd stick to the same math, BUT relative to the service time max used for the level below, in this case "2" at rookie level. say it's "3" playable years at short a. 1 year's worth of draft minus about 5 better be enough to ~nearly fill the most short a teams held my any MLB team.. usually just 1.

each level it gets more complicated, though... not all players follow the restrictions, nor do you want that to occur.. hence the need to NOT starve any level. i said ~nearly fill in previous paragraph because those *players that inevitably dont go to Rookie ball can be in short a for 1,2,3 years in the example. that adds up. not all will advance in 1 year to aball, but assume most will since they are the 'better' college players most likely.

After short a it's very easy if # of teams reduces... ie 3 rookeis down to 2 A's per team ("the" max in league). you'd still want to ensure that enough players can fill that # of teams at A-ball relative to the # of years you enforce at Short A.

I used "3" above for short a... e.g. 5 would give ~2 years for most players going through your system at A-ball + advanced players that don't follow that typical path. same math, mostly... # of rounds * 2 (+extras, reduction of # of teams from rookie & SA to A-ball considerations) = enough to fill all teams in A ball?

(also start to consider 18 vs 22ish as starting age... do you want a 27year old in A-ball? i put an age limit at A-ball based on the oldest i want a college player to be allowed there.)

okay, that should be the idea... if you build it up logically, it will work... if oyu build it in a way that only ~20 players and a bunch of MiL FA trash are available for that league, you are scr&wed, guaranteed. you don't have to use my #'s, just the concept.

I really appreciate your well-thought out post. However, I read it several times and am having a hard time fulling understanding what you are saying. It is very possible that my brain + Saturdays + numbers do not mix too well together. (Honestly, my brain + any day + numbers are often not the best combination anyway.)

I do understand that the draft is a very important thing to consider. I was planning on doing a 40 round draft with this set up. Possibly have the game generate enough players for 43 to 45 rounds. Does that sound like a good start?

[homerj]

Originally Posted by NoOne

side note, i'd stay away fro roster limits...

This all just makes me wish that OOTP just got this right out of the box. It gets tiring trying to find settings that try to match how minor league systems work and how players progress in them.

[Situational_Lefty]

Originally Posted by homerj

This all just makes me wish that OOTP just got this right out of the box. It gets tiring trying to find settings that try to match how minor league systems work and how players progress in them.

So roster limits are bad? I am now so confused. Brain hurty.

[PSUColonel]

I have never had a problem setting it up the way it’s sctually done. There is nothing wrong with service time or roster size limits the way I utilize them.

[Situational_Lefty]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have never had a problem setting it up the way it’s sctually done. There is nothing wrong with service time or roster size limits the way I utilize them.

I did just do a quick test run on one of my junk leagues and set up roster size limits. I saw what NoOne said is correct "they actually cause the AI to fill to the Max any way possible". However, if I set a limit a few about what should be in real life (such as instead of a 25 man roster I set a limit of 27). Then it should allow for enough players on each team, right? I might go with the suggestion of every thing Low A and below set to no limits to be sure the teams have enough players to cover any call-ups that might be needed due to injury.

[PSUColonel]

What I do is give the AI some leeway. I instruct teams who carry 35 players to have 14 position players and 8 relievers 5 man rotation) for a total of 27 players. After that, the AiI can do whatever it wants. For teams with a 25 man limit, I mandate 7 bullpen pitchers (again 5 man rotation) and 12 position players for a total of 24....the last spot is up to the AI

[homerj]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

What I do is give the AI some leeway. I instruct teams who carry 35 players to have 14 position players and 8 relievers 5 man rotation) for a total of 27 players. After that, the AiI can do whatever it wants. For teams with a 25 man limit, I mandate 7 bullpen pitchers (again 5 man rotation) and 12 position players for a total of 24....the last spot is up to the AI

Then what am I missing in setting up a roster? Where I notice the AI doesn't set up a maximum roster correctly, is if there is an injury and they go on the 7-day DL. They won't actually call up another player, and just wait for the other player to get back from the DL. It makes the idea of a minor league DL meaningless.

I fired up a league, did the AI roster management, of a 25 man roster in AAA, the AI only put 24 players on it. There was another guy coming back in a couple weeks. If I got rid of the players on the DL, then they would move someone up to fill the 25 man. So it's like the minor league DL is more or less cosmetic in how rosters get managed---otherwise there would be a AA callup or minor league FA signing.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Situational_Lefty

I did just do a quick test run on one of my junk leagues and set up roster size limits. I saw what NoOne said is correct "they actually cause the AI to fill to the Max any way possible". However, if I set a limit a few about what should be in real life (such as instead of a 25 man roster I set a limit of 27). Then it should allow for enough players on each team, right? I might go with the suggestion of every thing Low A and below set to no limits to be sure the teams have enough players to cover any call-ups that might be needed due to injury.

It’s possible I just haven’t noticed this particular issue, which if true, is a sad thing after 18 versions of OOTP, and really needs to be fixed.

[Situational_Lefty]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

What I do is give the AI some leeway. I instruct teams who carry 35 players to have 14 position players and 8 relievers 5 man rotation) for a total of 27 players. After that, the AiI can do whatever it wants. For teams with a 25 man limit, I mandate 7 bullpen pitchers (again 5 man rotation) and 12 position players for a total of 24....the last spot is up to the AI

You know, I have never really messed around with those options before. I noticed that it has those same options twice. Example: Number of relievers non DH league 7, number of relievers DH league 7. Should I adjust both sets of options?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by homerj

This all just makes me wish that OOTP just got this right out of the box. It gets tiring trying to find settings that try to match how minor league systems work and how players progress in them.

Agreed..tired of constantly have to “fiddle” or tinker with what is becoming an overgrown model train set. I want ootp to reflect real life right out of the chute when you live ad it up, and make st importantly, to work, and work well.

To me, gameplay trumps customization.

[Situational_Lefty]

Originally Posted by NoOne

side note, i'd stay away fro roster limits... they actually cause the AI to fill to the Max any way possible... not always a good thing, especially if any level is starved due to setup. if the AI didn't do detrimental things due to them, i'd be all for using them

i made this post to give an example of a working system above, so that it was seperate from the "how-to" above.

i have a uniform system that makes it easier and less clumpy for a team that has fewer teams at any particular level... in that situation it WILL happen, nothing you can do about 80 players on a team when that mlb team has 1/2 a many Rookie-ball teams as the yankees etc.. it has to happen or the yankees 20 rookie teams won't have enough players

so, if not uniform you cannot expect a cookie-cutter look to # of players. even with uniform expect a 10-20 player swing per team in any single year, especially at rookie and short a levels. also, don't be afraid to adapt after you implement a system... e.g. i intend to do somethign about my "short a" stop below.

39round draft, 44 rounds of players created (~5 extra so that i still see both batters and pitchers at deep end of draft - availability, not quality of course)

Rookie - 2 teams per MLB
1 year service time max, so 2 playable years. (22 age max, optional)
Real-sim results: ~30-40 average per team, no shortages of a position etc

Short A - 1 team per MLB
3 year service time max, 4 years playable (23 age max, optional)
Results: ~30-50players... a bit clumpy here, but you need to go by the minimum # on any particular team.. potentially not enough of each position etc). i could probably drop this to 2 / 3 playable years and will test it out.

A-Ball - 2 teams per MLB
4 year service time max, 5 years playable (24 age max - start to use something a good idea, base on college kid ~age for A-ball - ie i give 2-3 years - not all are "22" etc, they can remain their while "24" too)
Results: ~30 per team

AA - 1 team per MLB
6 years service max, 7 years playable (26 age max, based on an 18 y.o. this time)
Results: 30-40 players per team

AAA - 1 per mlb
none/none
Results ~35-40 per team.

you need way more than ~25 at any level, in general. a) you will be short pitchers or a position or two on at least a few teams and b) it will force 'better' players to move along your system based on age/service time as opposed to what they do on the field, because the system is starved and needs that player at A-ball instead of wherever they "should" be, otherwise.

except at short a, there's 2 years at each stop and the # of rounds per year with all other relative considerations taken into account provides enough 'base' players at each level as well as prevents aged palyers at lower levels etc etc. better prospects easily float through at their own pace.

roster limits doesn't fix the problem, it will exascerbate it in most situations.

it doesn't have to be the same system as above to work.. many ways to get it done. make sure there is enough crap players at each level -- the mil lifers that, at best, can be a spot injury fill-in at the ML level. those guys go through step-by-step. make sure there are enough of "those" players so that the good ones CAN ignore any age or service time requirements.

i haven't tried defining sp/rp/position players for the mil system, as of yet. based on how other things work inthe ai, i'd be really wary of forcing its hand to do anything. it probably runs better if you focus on providing enough of each position per level based on draft and rules and let the extras fall where they may. less likely to restrict the 'better' players that are all that really matter anyway. one more reason they get held at short a becaue that team requires 19 pitchers and the draft doesn't provide enough based on rules so, all hands on deck, so to speak for those that meet the requirements

So mine league set up is the standard MLB setup minus the DSL leagues. What number of draft rounds would you say is a good setting to put it at?

[PSUColonel]

30 to 35