The "Steroids Era"

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by Bahnzo

The PED thing always makes me laugh. If you want to chastise Bonds and the like for PED's, then you need to do the same to Mantle and Ford.

Those guys gobbled "greenies" back in the day before most games. And don't tell me it's different. They took them because they gave them an advantage. So if you want to get on your high horses about cheating, then you better make sure you include a lot more players than just the ones the media has told you to hate.

The difference is, greeneies (or dextroamphetamine sulfate, an amphetamine) was a product of the war, steroids are not. Basically every solider coming out of WWII was hooked on them because that was the stimulant handed out like candy back then, and eventually they were past down to players who were entering the leagues in the 50s and 60s.

If anything Mantle was more notorious for being a complete boozehound and degenerate and it eventually killed him. Almost every great baseball player was on some sort of drug back in those days, hell, booze and greenies were almost considered necessities to play.

Unlike steroids, which there was no causation for other than for personal gain, it's not like there was a war where the united states government just pumped up it's soldiers with a couple hits of HGH, and a swig of brandy.

So, to be honest, it's like frying two different types of fish. Yes, they are similar in usage (as in it helped them succeed) but there was a different preparation and presentation to how those drugs came to be.

[darkhorse]

I suspect a high percentage of the steroids lynch mob later became Trump voters.

[jaxmagicman]

Nobody has ever proven to me, that steroids=homeruns. It is absurd to think that that is the only reason a player could get better at hitting homeruns. Many factors come into play. Like expansion, better workout routines, better diets, better rest, and many other things that could explain more homeruns. It isn't a 1 to 1 cause, you take steroids you hit homeruns, end of story.

[psd]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Nobody has ever proven to me, that steroids=homeruns. It is absurd to think that that is the only reason a player could get better at hitting homeruns. Many factors come into play. Like expansion, better workout routines, better diets, better rest, and many other things that could explain more homeruns. It isn't a 1 to 1 cause, you take steroids you hit homeruns, end of story.

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu...teroids-v3.pdf

From that article I linked to:
1. Increased muscle mass results in higher bat speed and therefore higher batted ball speed

2. Higher batted ball speed results in longer fly balls and therefore higher HR numbers.



Why would SO many players take something that didn't help? Do you honestly believe hitting 73 home runs is due to better diets and better rest? Steroids will NOT turn a marginal player into a HR superstar, but they WILL turn an already big HR hitter into a much bigger HR hitter. That was proven by the numbers.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by psd

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu...teroids-v3.pdf

From that article I linked to:
1. Increased muscle mass results in higher bat speed and therefore higher batted ball speed

2. Higher batted ball speed results in longer fly balls and therefore higher HR numbers.



Why would SO many players take something that didn't help? Do you honestly believe hitting 73 home runs is due to better diets and better rest? Steroids will NOT turn a marginal player into a HR superstar, but they WILL turn an already big HR hitter into a much bigger HR hitter. That was proven by the numbers.

We are in a season that is about to set a new standard for home runs. The proof is as lazy as the Make America's Game Great Again crowd.

[psd]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

We are in a season that is about to set a new standard for home runs. The proof is as lazy as the Make America's Game Great Again crowd.

You do realize that MLB can change the specs of the ball, AKA "juicing" it, to create more home runs also, right? And if you think that all MLB are clean now, here's a hint: they're not. They are still beating the laughable drug "tests". With the occasional failure. The drug nandrolone, which is what they caught Sterling Marte on, is caused by testerone that has been manufactured in a lab without strict standards. The players are still juicing, the balls are juiced. Until it is not worth getting caught, the players are going to do it. Making millions of dollars and risking only a half year suspension is well worth it.

[darkhorse]

Fake news.

[psd]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Fake news.

Of course.

[Jason Moyer]

As long as one side of the conversation refuses to acknowledge that anabolic steroids were part of the game for decades before Dr. Canseco went into his basement lab and invented them, the conversation isn't much worth having.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by psd

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu...teroids-v3.pdf

From that article I linked to:
1. Increased muscle mass results in higher bat speed and therefore higher batted ball speed

2. Higher batted ball speed results in longer fly balls and therefore higher HR numbers.

Let's grant for the moment the above are absolute fact. Here's the $64,000 question as it pertains to the points above: How many more home runs? 1% more? 2% more? 5% more? 10% more? What's the answer? It is even possible to answer it?

[psd]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Let's grant for the moment the above are absolute fact. Here's the $64,000 question as it pertains to the points above: How many more home runs? 1% more? 2% more? 5% more? 10% more? What's the answer? It is even possible to answer it?

Why does or more importantly, why should it matter how many? Even if it's 1, they cheated to get it. If you're a teacher, and you catch a student cheating on an exam, are you going to sit there and tell me that the first thing you're going to ask your student is "How much did this raise your grade?"

[psd]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

As long as one side of the conversation refuses to acknowledge that anabolic steroids were part of the game for decades before Dr. Canseco went into his basement lab and invented them, the conversation isn't much worth having.

As long as the other side refuses to acknowledge that steroids helped these HR hitters hit even MORE HR, this conversation isn't AT ALL worth having.

No, they won't help someone who can't reach the warning track hit home runs. But they WILL help someone who CAN reach it make some of those go into the stands instead of being caught against the wall.

[darkhorse]

How much has cheating raised the grade of every single player in major league history?

Jason Moyer's sig, quoted below, illuminates the fact that sports have been, are, and will always be populated by players who want to win. As long as they aren't trying to lose like the 1919 White Sox, or incentivized to lose like gambling Pete Rose, I'm not greatly impassioned to use ignorant prejudice to decide who to discriminate against when it comes to barring obvious Hall of Famers from induction.

""I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses."
-- Tom House

"In 1973, the year I first ran for Congress, the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce concluded a year-long investigation that found--and I quote--'drug use exists...in all sports and levels of competition...In some instances, the danger of improper drug use--primarily amphetamines and anabolic steroids--can only be described as alarming'"
-- Henry Waxman

[psd]

So it's ok to do anything you want, as long as it's because you're trying to win. Gotcha.

We'll agree to disagree. You think cheating is fine. I don't.

[darkhorse]

And you think that players haven't always worked every angle possible to win since Bobby Mathews threw the first pitch on opening day, 1871? Now who's naive? The steroids lynch mob isn't concerned at all with justice, they just want the players to fit their fantasy of the good ol' days. A time that never existed except in their infantile delusions.

[psd]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

And you think that players haven't always worked every angle possible to win since Bobby Mathews threw the first pitch on opening day, 1871? Now who's naive? The steroids lynch mob isn't concerned at all with justice, they just want the players to fit their fantasy of the good ol' days. A time that never existed except in their infantile delusions.

Again, so you think it's perfectly OK to do ANYTHING to win? Even if it's illegal? Great message to send to kids.

Of course they are going to use every thing they can to try to win. The whole object of the game is to win. But cheating isn't ok. Doesn't matter if it helped a lot,a little, or not at all. If you try, it's wrong. I don't give a rats ass if everyone does it. Dont give an eff if it's "always been that way." Cheating is cheating. How many people do you think have no problem with steroids because "everyone is doing it", but called the Patriots cheaters over spygate, even though former players & coaches said "everyone was doing it". The hypocrisy is laughable.

You don't know me at all. You have no idea what I am or am not concerned about. I just don't think we should reward anybody for cheating. I'm just kind of funny that way.

Is it OK for kids to cheat on exams? After all, they are just trying to "win" by getting a good grade.

As I said, we will agree to disagree. Cheat away if it makes you proud. I like to actually earn something honestly.

We're done. I'm not changing your mind. you're not changing mine.

[darkhorse]

The balls have been tested and there's nothing going on there. The players are being tested, and surprise, surprise, the results don't fit your paranoid delusions.

Since we're setting record home run numbers this year, obviously, to your mind virtually every player in the league is using steroids and beating the tests.

Your stance is laughable but the roots of such thinking, divorced from reality, are easy to discern.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by psd

Again, so you think it's perfectly OK to do ANYTHING to win? Even if it's illegal? Great message to send to kids.

Of course they are going to use every thing they can to try to win. The whole object of the game is to win. But cheating isn't ok. Doesn't matter if it helped a lot,a little, or not at all. If you try, it's wrong. I don't give a rats ass if everyone does it. Dont give an eff if it's "always been that way." Cheating is cheating. How many people do you think have no problem with steroids because "everyone is doing it", but called the Patriots cheaters over spygate, even though former players & coaches said "everyone was doing it". The hypocrisy is laughable.

You don't know me at all. You have no idea what I am or am not concerned about. I just don't think we should reward anybody for cheating. I'm just kind of funny that way.

Is it OK for kids to cheat on exams? After all, they are just trying to "win" by getting a good grade.

As I said, we will agree to disagree. Cheat away if it makes you proud. I like to actually earn something honestly.

We're done. I'm not changing your mind. you're not changing mine.

I agree with you 100% that cheating should not be allowed nor rewarded. You've made some good arguments in this thread that have made me check my thoughts on this topic.

The questions that I wrestle with are these: If "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" how do we know who should or should not be punished? Should everyone be punished wholesale? Should only those who rise above the rest be punished as representatives for the whole? Should no one be punished since "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" and therefore everyone is on "equal footing"?

I think these questions are what it boils down to. Not is it wrong or is it right to cheat. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that cheating is okay.

[psd]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

The balls have been tested and there's nothing going on there. The players are being tested, and surprise, surprise, the results don't fit your paranoid delusions.

Since we're setting record home run numbers this year, obviously, to your mind virtually every player in the league is using steroids and beating the tests.

Your stance is laughable but the roots of such thinking, divorced from reality, are easy to discern.

https://theringer.com/2017-mlb-home-...s-6e1dd0233203

The balls have been tested? Really? How? By whom? MLB?? Nah, they would NEVER lie to the public. I mean, look how open they were about the steroid issue at the beginning. The year Mcgwire & Sosa chased the HR record. MLB put a stop to that real quick, huh?

Matthew Trueblood in that article I linked above said this. “We can hem and haw about the lack of perfect evidence, and we certainly aren’t going to get commissioner Rob Manfred to admit it or anything, but the league juiced the baseball in the summer of 2015, and they haven’t unjuiced it.”

I think I will side with someone who writes for BP rather than someone on a message board. That article also said former coaches AND players concurred. I think they would know FAR more than you would. Since they, you know, actually played the game.


And you honestly don't think players , who by your own admission, have been taking steroids and finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage since day 1, haven't or don't have the know-how to beat these laughable drug tests?? Who is the one divorced from reality here?

And several players FAILED tests. If you, you know, actually would bother to try to educate YOURSELF, instead of thinking you know all & assuming what others know and think and trying to educate THEM, you would know WHY they failed. So much for my paranoid delusions.

Enjoy your summer. Adios. Now I add you to my ignore list.

[psd]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I agree with you 100% that cheating should not be allowed nor rewarded. You've made some good arguments in this thread that have made me check my thoughts on this topic.

The questions that I wrestle with are these: If "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" how do we know who should or should not be punished? Should everyone be punished wholesale? Should only those who rise above the rest be punished as representatives for the whole? Should no one be punished since "everyone is doing it" and "it's always been there" and therefore everyone is on "equal footing"?

I think these questions are what it boils down to. Not is it wrong or is it right to cheat. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that cheating is okay.

For me, as far as the HOF anyways, the solution is this:

Build a wing. It's part of the main building but not actually in it. Just attached to it. ( I've never been there. I don't know the layout). It is accessible only from the main HOF. There is a sign in front of a queue to access it. "The players in this room had careers that should enable them to be in the HOF. However, due to PED suspicions, they are placed in this room, so their careers could be acknowledged. Do not enter this room if you feel they do not belong in the HOF. In the event it has been PROVEN 100% that they DID NOT use PEDS, they will be moved to the regular HOF permanently. If, on the other hand it is proven 100% that they DID use PEDS, they will be removed from THIS room, and their careers will not be acknowledged as legitimate by the HOF."

Maybe not a perfect solution. But they are IN the HOF, but not IN the HOF.

For other players, I stated in another post that failing a drug test should void their salary, and bring them down to the league minimum for the duration of what is left on their contract. Re-tests and new tests conducted to avoid ANY false positives. Hell even use polygraphs if they fail a test and outright ask them. But it's well worth the risk. Anybody who thinks players are clean now are delusional. 30 million a year contracts are here, with 40 soon to follow IMO. It's WELL worth the risk of the small chance of getting caught. MLB needs to make it NOT worth it. THEN you will see a sharp decline in numbers.