Too many decisions to closers

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I may be totally off base, but I get the feeling you want to have an ai that always makes the mathematically optimal decision in every circumstance during games. But that would be totally and completely contrary to real baseball. I imagine the ai could be programmed to do that, but what would be the point? The results would then be far more unrealistic than they are now.

Naw. Not what I'm looking for. I want the AI to sac bunt with the pitcher almost all of the time just like real MLB even though the stat geeks will tell you it is rarely the "correct" play, even with the pitcher hitting. I want to see a runner get thrown out at third as the third out of an inning once in a while. I just don't want to see guys trying to go first to third or stretch a double into a triple with two outs several times per game. I don't want to see the AI have your best CF playing LF while a good LF is plugged into center to give him a rating of "1". I don't want to see the the pitcher pinch hit for with a young slugging first baseman who then proceeds to sac bunt down by three runs in the fifth. I don't want to see starting pitchers who have a shutout going through eight innings left in to hit and then subbed for with a new pitcher in the ninth. I don't want to see the AI bring in a lefty pitcher to face a lefty, get him out, then bring in a new pitcher when two more lefties are coming to bat. There are numerous areas where the AI can be adjusted to act more like modern day MLB managers and players. None of these things can be "fixed" by tweaking the settings.

This game is awesome. Just don't tell me that perfection is attainable with a settings tweak. It is great that the year end stats look similar to the year end stats of modern day MLB. It would be better if the way in which those stats were generated also looked like modern day MLB. So like I said, the "forest" looks great but when you start to look at some of the "trees" they don't and it kind of spoils the vision of the forest for me.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Naw. Not what I'm looking for. I want the AI to sac bunt with the pitcher almost all of the time just like real MLB even though the stat geeks will tell you it is rarely the "correct" play, even with the pitcher hitting. I want to see a runner get thrown out at third as the third out of an inning once in a while. I just don't want to see guys trying to go first to third or stretch a double into a triple with two outs several times per game. I don't want to see the AI have your best CF playing LF while a good LF is plugged into center to give him a rating of "1". I don't want to see the the pitcher pinch hit for with a young slugging first baseman who then proceeds to sac bunt down by three runs in the fifth. I don't want to see starting pitchers who have a shutout going through eight innings left in to hit and then subbed for with a new pitcher in the ninth. I don't want to see the AI bring in a lefty pitcher to face a lefty, get him out, then bring in a new pitcher when two more lefties are coming to bat. There are numerous areas where the AI can be adjusted to act more like modern day MLB managers and players. None of these things can be "fixed" by tweaking the settings.

This game is awesome. Just don't tell me that perfection is attainable with a settings tweak. It is great that the year end stats look similar to the year end stats of modern day MLB. It would be better if the way in which those stats were generated also looked like modern day MLB. So like I said, the "forest" looks great but when you start to look at some of the "trees" they don't and it kind of spoils the vision of the forest for me.

I have been playing this game through 6 versions and I have yet to see anything you described above with the exception of a bad LF playing CF while the great CF is in LF.
I have yet to see the AI bring in a lefty specialist and pull him when the following batters are lefties. They will pull him when the next hitter is a righty even if a lefty follows the righty but I see nothing completely wrong with that depending on the situation. The SP hitting then getting pulled is the result of hitters getting on base and the pitch count climbing. Haven't played much 16 without a DH so I will concede on that one for now. But that hasn;t happened in the last several versions. If it has happened to you i would like to see a SS of it or a thread about it.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Game

I have been playing this game through 6 versions and I have yet to see anything you described above with the exception of a bad LF playing CF while the great CF is in LF.
I have yet to see the AI bring in a lefty specialist and pull him when the following batters are lefties. They will pull him when the next hitter is a righty even if a lefty follows the righty but I see nothing completely wrong with that depending on the situation. The SP hitting then getting pulled is the result of hitters getting on base and the pitch count climbing. Haven't played much 16 without a DH so I will concede on that one for now. But that hasn;t happened in the last several versions. If it has happened to you i would like to see a SS of it or a thread about it.

See my "Questionable AI decisions" thread for screen shots of some of these. The "Bunting" thread also has some screen shots of questionable sac bunting by the AI. I'll have to get a screenshot the next time the AI uses a lefty to get a lefty out then replaces him even though another lefty is up. It happens plenty so shouldn't take long.

The SP hitting then getting pulled is the result of hitters getting on base and the pitch count climbing.

How does a pitcher's pitch count climb while his team is hitting?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

See my "Questionable AI decisions" thread for screen shots of some of these. The "Bunting" thread also has some screen shots of questionable sac bunting by the AI. I'll have to get a screenshot the next time the AI uses a lefty to get a lefty out then replaces him even though another lefty is up. It happens plenty so shouldn't take long.



How does a pitcher's pitch count climb while his team is hitting?

I have seen a pitcher hit for himself, get the 3rd out. Then start the 9th pitch to 1-2 batters that drove his pitch count up then get pulled. Never, to my knowledge seen him bat then not start the 9th.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Game

I have seen a pitcher hit for himself, get the 3rd out. Then start the 9th pitch to 1-2 batters that drove his pitch count up then get pulled. Never, to my knowledge seen him bat then not start the 9th.

Like I said, see my "Questionable AI decisions" thread. I have a screen shot of it and I have seen it several times with a SP pitching a shutout through eight innings.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Game

I have yet to see the AI bring in a lefty specialist and pull him when the following batters are lefties. They will pull him when the next hitter is a righty even if a lefty follows the righty but I see nothing completely wrong with that depending on the situation.

I knew it wouldn't take long for me to see this since it happens all the time. As a side issue, Gallant was the last "rested" reliever left in the pen.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I want the AI to sac bunt with the pitcher almost all of the time just like real MLB even though the stat geeks will tell you it is rarely the "correct" play, even with the pitcher hitting.

Raise your sac bunting settings. I don't see anything out of line in my games.

I want to see a runner get thrown out at third as the third out of an inning once in a while.

I've seen it happen.

I just don't want to see guys trying to go first to third or stretch a double into a triple with two outs several times per game.

There's got to be confirmation bias at work here, because I've never seen something like that "several times per game." Also, it's a text sim; you can imagine the play happening any way you want. Who's to say the third baseman was guarding the bag? Who's to say it wasn't the proper call to advance?

I don't want to see the AI have your best CF playing LF while a good LF is plugged into center to give him a rating of "1".

While the AI's defensive decisions are questionable at times, I think you're overstating the issue. I've seen situations where a mediocre OF plays center to allow the usual CF to play left when the CF is rated better in left - which, while it's the wrong call, you can generally understand why it happens. I've also seen weird configurations after a pinch hitter. But I can only remember one or two times where a team actively weakened itself with its defensive configuration. It happens, but it doesn't happen all the time, as you are insinuating. It's also an easy fix when it does - set yourself to control the other team, make the switch, and hand control back over to the AI.

I don't want to see the the pitcher pinch hit for with a young slugging first baseman who then proceeds to sac bunt down by three runs in the fifth.

In 6 versions of OOTP, I have never seen anything remotely close to that happen. Sounds more like a one-time bug than an AI issue.

I don't want to see starting pitchers who have a shutout going through eight innings left in to hit and then subbed for with a new pitcher in the ninth.

Never seen that happen. If the pitcher hits, he pitches, except under adverse circumstances, like an injury or a pinch hitter. And ESPECIALLY with a shutout going - the game does prioritize those things, so unless his pitch count is absurd, it'll let him play.

I don't want to see the AI bring in a lefty pitcher to face a lefty, get him out, then bring in a new pitcher when two more lefties are coming to bat.

Now this, I've seen. But I am perfectly okay with it. Have you checked out the batter's ratings as well as the pitcher's? Just because the batter is a lefty doesn't mean he automatically has extreme splits against lefties. Perhaps the first batter required the use of a lefty specialist, due to him shelling right-handers, but the next two batters are closer to 50/50 against lefties, so you bring in a shutdown guy to guarantee the out. I think you're over-emphasizing the importance of L/R matchups.

Now I know that most of my post amounts to "I haven't seen that" - but that's because most of yours amounts to "I've seen this". Show us some hard data that proves that these things are happening in large amounts, and maybe I'll reconsider, but right now all you have is anecdotal evidence, which is easily shot down.


EDIT: Per the OP - I have noticed that as well. The AI has a strange tendency to bring the closer into the game in tie situations really often. This can be mitigated by lowering the closer usage in the league settings.

[Dyzalot]

Raise your sac bunting settings. I don't see anything out of line in my games.

See my bunting thread.

I've seen it happen.

Yes it happens all of the time unlike in real MLB.

There's got to be confirmation bias at work here, because I've never seen something like that "several times per game." Also, it's a text sim; you can imagine the play happening any way you want. Who's to say the third baseman was guarding the bag? Who's to say it wasn't the proper call to advance?

When the sim says there was a throw to third then the runner probably shouldn't have been going.

While the AI's defensive decisions are questionable at times, I think you're overstating the issue. I've seen situations where a mediocre OF plays center to allow the usual CF to play left when the CF is rated better in left - which, while it's the wrong call, you can generally understand why it happens. I've also seen weird configurations after a pinch hitter. But I can only remember one or two times where a team actively weakened itself with its defensive configuration. It happens, but it doesn't happen all the time, as you are insinuating. It's also an easy fix when it does - set yourself to control the other team, make the switch, and hand control back over to the AI.

I see all the time where the CF gets removed and a guy off the bench goes in to play center with no rating instead of putting him in left where he is rated as a "10" (1-20) and moving the current left fielder to center where he is rated as a "15".

In 6 versions of OOTP, I have never seen anything remotely close to that happen. Sounds more like a one-time bug than an AI issue.

See my bunting thread.

Never seen that happen. If the pitcher hits, he pitches, except under adverse circumstances, like an injury or a pinch hitter. And ESPECIALLY with a shutout going - the game does prioritize those things, so unless his pitch count is absurd, it'll let him play.

See my "questionable AI decisions" thread.

Now I know that most of my post amounts to "I haven't seen that" - but that's because most of yours amounts to "I've seen this". Show us some hard data that proves that these things are happening in large amounts, and maybe I'll reconsider, but right now all you have is anecdotal evidence, which is easily shot down.

I have screen shots in the threads I have referenced in this post.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

When the sim says there was a throw to third then the runner probably shouldn't have been going.


I see all the time where the CF gets removed and a guy off the bench goes in to play center with no rating instead of putting him in left where he is rated as a "10" (1-20) and moving the current left fielder to center where he is rated as a "15".


I have screen shots in the threads I have referenced in this post.

In reference to the three points:

1) As I said, as it's a text-based sim, so you can use your imagination a little bit. Plus it could also be related to how the engine works, like how you might see the winning run headed home with 1 out and the shortstop cut off the throw. The game has already determined that the runner has scored on the play (or in this case, advanced to third), and the PbP just spits out a situation that's incongruous to the moment. But even so, I just don't see it happening enough in my game to make me pause and question it.

2) And I haven't. We're not going to get anywhere with that discussion.

3) You've got a lot of screenshots without much context. You post game log shots, which certainly tell what happens, but not the scenario or the ratings involved. I'm not trying to say you don't have a point or that the issue is non-existent. But I just haven't yet seen enough evidence to convince me that there's a problem, especially when I'm almost through a full season in 16 (playing out my games) without a single PbP complaint (which is impressive).

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

In reference to the three points:

1) As I said, as it's a text-based sim, so you can use your imagination a little bit. Plus it could also be related to how the engine works, like how you might see the winning run headed home with 1 out and the shortstop cut off the throw. The game has already determined that the runner has scored on the play (or in this case, advanced to third), and the PbP just spits out a situation that's incongruous to the moment. But even so, I just don't see it happening enough in my game to make me pause and question it.

2) And I haven't. We're not going to get anywhere with that discussion.

3) You've got a lot of screenshots without much context. You post game log shots, which certainly tell what happens, but not the scenario or the ratings involved. I'm not trying to say you don't have a point or that the issue is non-existent. But I just haven't yet seen enough evidence to convince me that there's a problem, especially when I'm almost through a full season in 16 (playing out my games) without a single PbP complaint (which is impressive).

In terms of #1, if it says the play was "close" should I just imagine that it wasn't? As for #2, I guess I can start posting screen shots of those too.. As for #3 I can only laugh. People say "post screen shots, prove it happens because I never see it". Then I post screen shots and the argument is, well I don't have enough context. Whatever, I guess you just have the opinion that I am trying to troll the OOTP community and your mind is set.

Also as to the "context" argument I'm pretty sure I gave pretty good context on the lefty being removed after facing one batter for a righty to face another lefty batter. It was the 7th inning and the reliever being brought in was the last rested reliever in the pen. For the bunting ones I provided the context of having the bunting set to "rarely" and the in game strategy set to "sabermetric" and yet I still see a young slugger bunting a guy over in a scoreless game in the early innings. Not sure how much more context is needed to realize those are problems with the AI.

[Dyzalot]

Speaking to the OP, here is an example of my closer being brought in by the AI on opening day in the 9th when down 7 runs even though there were several other arms in the pen available.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Speaking to the OP, here is an example of my closer being brought in by the AI on opening day in the 9th when down 7 runs even though there were several other arms in the pen available.

Any chance the manager just wanted to get him some work? Could it be he didn't pitch in the last few spring training games and needed to toss and inning to avoid rust?

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Any chance the manager just wanted to get him some work? Could it be he didn't pitch in the last few spring training games and needed to toss and inning to avoid rust?

He didn't pitch the last few spring training games so that is possible. Do the players actually accrue "rust" in the week between the last ST game and opening day? If so then maybe that is a problem.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

He didn't pitch the last few spring training games so that is possible. Do the players actually accrue "rust" in the week between the last ST game and opening day? If so then maybe that is a problem.

I don't know if it would be a problem. Managers often use closers in strange situations in order to get them work. I remember Leyland bringing Valverde into games the Tigers had big leads. Of course, that big lead was soon in jeopardy Think about bad teams. If you go all week without a lead to hold, do you just let your closer rot in the bullpen? You said it was opening day. Was the next day an off day?

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I don't know if it would be a problem. Managers often use closers in strange situations in order to get them work. I remember Leyland bringing Valverde into games the Tigers had big leads. Of course, that big lead was soon in jeopardy Think about bad teams. If you go all week without a lead to hold, do you just let your closer rot in the bullpen? You said it was opening day. Was the next day an off day?

Yes the next day was an off day. However, it was a blowout so why not use even more of the pen if rust was a concern? No one had pitched in a week and no one was going to pitch the next day as well. Is it only a concern to the AI to make sure the closer doesn't get rusty?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Yes the next day was an off day. However, it was a blowout so why not use even more of the pen if rust was a concern? No one had pitched in a week and no one was going to pitch the next day as well. Is it only a concern to the AI to make sure the closer doesn't get rusty?

I see what you're saying, but I really don't have an explanation. What you should look for is an instance of the AI doing this and tiring out the closer, so he isn't available to pitch in a meaningful situation.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I see what you're saying, but I really don't have an explanation. What you should look for is an instance of the AI doing this and tiring out the closer, so he isn't available to pitch in a meaningful situation.

I don't think that was the scope of the OP though, was it? It was merely a question as to why closers were getting involved in so many decisions. If the AI is using them in more non save situations than MLB managers do then that could be a possible explanation. That was the only reason I posted the example.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I don't think that was the scope of the OP though, was it? It was merely a question as to why closers were getting involved in so many decisions. If the AI is using them in more non save situations than MLB managers do then that could be a possible explanation. That was the only reason I posted the example.

Ugh, I'm sorry. That's what I get for jumping into a thread late. Based on that issue then, I wonder if OOTP has more blown saves than real life?

[ra7c7er]

A lot could have to do with manager ratings too. I noticed with some managers my closers would have a lot of decisions. Especially if he was easily the best pitcher I had. Then with other managers my closers sometimes don't go in in save situations even when fully rested.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

A lot could have to do with manager ratings too. I noticed with some managers my closers would have a lot of decisions. Especially if he was easily the best pitcher I had. Then with other managers my closers sometimes don't go in in save situations even when fully rested.

Stuff like this only makes me love OOTP more. If it is due to manager personality, I love it. I'm really loving the fact that some AI managers bat the pitcher 8th instead of 9th. Giving individual AI managers the ability to differ from other AI managers rocks.