Who Would You Take Out of the MLB HOF?

[dodger300]

Raines and Trammell need to be in the hall now!!

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by The Game

.320 2400 hits is a HOF at any position in any era.Ranks 30th all time in 3B.

We'll have to agree to disagree. While .320 is pretty impressive his lack of power really diminishes his value. And for a strictly singles hitter 2400 hits over 17 years doesn't guarantee the Hall for me. Even with his high batting average his career OPS+ was only 107, that's good for about 87th all time for 3b.

Traynor never lead the league in any offensive categories other than triples one year. In fact, He never finished higher than 5th in the league in batting average. He was a good player not a great one.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

We'll have to agree to disagree. While .320 is pretty impressive his lack of power really diminishes his value. And for a strictly singles hitter 2400 hits over 17 years doesn't guarantee the Hall for me. Even with his high batting average his career OPS+ was only 107, that's good for about 87th all time for 3b.

Traynor never lead the league in any offensive categories other than triples one year. In fact, He never finished higher than 5th in the league in batting average. He was a good player not a great one.

Your definition of what a singles hitter is and mine seem to differ. Ranking 30th all time in 3B to me is not a singles hitter. He averaged 31 2B per season. Yes he had no power. There are 11 HOF 3B.
He is 2nd in average. 1st in 3B. 4th in Hits. He is also the 1st HOF 3B.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst3b.shtml

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by The Game

Your definition of what a singles hitter is and mine seem to differ. Ranking 30th all time in 3B to me is not a singles hitter. He averaged 31 2B per season. Yes he had no power. There are 11 HOF 3B.
He is 2nd in average. 1st in 3B. 4th in Hits. He is also the 1st HOF 3B.
Stats for Hall of Fame Third Basemen : A Research List by Baseball Almanac

What metric are you using to determine 30th all time?

EDIT: Even if he does rank 30th as a 3rd basement and there is only 11 3B in the hall of fame that tells me there are still 19 more deserving 3b out there. So I still say pull him out and put some of the others in.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

What metric are you using to determine 30th all time?

EDIT: Even if he does rank 30th as a 3rd basement and there is only 11 3B in the hall of fame that tells me there are still 19 more deserving 3b out there. So I still say pull him out and put some of the others in.

ranks 30th all time in triples. sorry if I confused you with 3B.
Career Leaders &amp Records for Triples - Baseball-Reference.com

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by The Game

ranks 30th all time in triples. sorry if I confused you with 3B.
Career Leaders &amp Records for Triples - Baseball-Reference.com

ah that makes more sense! I read that completely wrong.

[VanillaGorilla]

What makes enshrinement special is that it cannot be rescinded. I am whole heartedly against removing any player, in actuality.

However, for the sake of discussion, if I have to pick one, I'd say put an injunction on Deacon White and enter Gavvy Cravath, instead.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by The Game

ranks 30th all time in triples. sorry if I confused you with 3B.
Career Leaders &amp Records for Triples - Baseball-Reference.com

It is worth noting that triples is the single career stat that best indicates HOF induction. The top 14 career triples hitters are in the HOF, and 2 of the three tied for 15th place are, also.

I haven't been able to find another hitting stat that you can go down the leader list further and find everyone in the Hall.

[jazzrack]

I read inn usa today the other day that only 2500 people showed up for the ceremony.


ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha

if bonds was being inducted the normal 20k+ would have shown up.

the fans have spoken

[jazzrack]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Yeah. Many of the guys who peaked in the 80's seem to have gotten screwed over in the HOF voting for some reason. Dunno why. But Raines and Trammell are the two guys from that era who aren't in who in my opinion should absolutely, no questions asked, make it.

the 80's was an era of balance, sports blowhards(reports/writers) don't like that, it's boring... for them. for those of use who just like to watch a good game it was awesome.

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by CatKnight

As for who I'd take out....Paul Molitor. I have a problem with someone going in primarily as a DH. Further, while the 3300 hits IS impressive.....234 HR, .306/.369/.448 stat line... Hm. We can do better.

You an NL guy? I think that is so wrong.

I have a problem someone going in primarily as a relief pitcher (Goose Gossage).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their defense (Ozzie Smith w/ his 28 HRs, .262/.337/.328).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their speed (Ricky Henderson w/ his 297 hrs, .279/.401/.419).

DH is apart of the game and Molitor was a hell of a player as a DH.

[David Watts]

No one will ever convince me that someone with 3000 hits doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. I don't care if every one of those hits were singles. 3000 hits, just like 300 wins for me equals automatic induction.

[Splitter24]

My All Could Be In the HOF Team (No recently retired guys):

C - Ted Simmons (Joe Torre, too. But he'll get in some day)
1B - Steve Garvey
2B - Lou Whitaker
3B - Dick Allen (if you consider him a 3B)
SS - Alan Trammell or Bill Dahlen
OF - Tim Raines
OF - Dale Murphy
OF - Dave Parker
OF - Dwight Evans
SP - Luis Tiant, Ron Guidry
RP - Lee Smith

I'm not advocating that all of these guys should be in. But they definitely could based on who's in. As far as booting out guys, you could probably just take the majority of the 1970's Veterans Committee who inducted any player who ever wore a Giants uniform in the 20's and 30's.

I just have one more thing to add re: Rabbit Maranville. And I've touched on this in another thread a couple of years ago. I grew up reading Bill James. But I'm not necessarily comfortable with using sabermetrics to judge HoF-worthiness. For those of you who haven't studied much history of baseball in the early years, it's hard to imagine now in today's VORPorific/WARtastic era just how famous Maranville was in the first quarter century of the 1900's. 5 top-10 MVP finishes, including a 2nd and a 3rd. He was everything in his era that Ozzie Smith was in the last quarter of the 20th century (Aparicio in the 50's and 60's was in this mold, too). He was a baseball entertainer the likes of which we will never see in our lifetime. His in game (and off-field) antics are the stuff of legend. Did the antics win ball games? No. But neither did Ozzie's on-field back flips. Did his popularity exceed his sabermetric value? Of course. But there were few players who were more famous in the 10's, 20's and 30's than Rabbit Maranville. The Committee got this one right.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

What makes enshrinement special is that it cannot be rescinded. I am whole heartedly against removing any player, in actuality.

However, for the sake of discussion, if I have to pick one, I'd say put an injunction on Deacon White and enter Gavvy Cravath, instead.

White was just added this year. Cravath oddly enough i am not sure i have ever heard of before but in 6 of his final 8 season he led the NL in HR. Where did his 119 career HR rank him in 1920 when he retired? Had he played more his 1st 4 years he would have been closer to 1500 hits vs 1134 would have more of a chance. but I can't seem to find his HR ranks on an all time list to start the 1921 season. Was he the 1st true power hitter?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

You an NL guy? I think that is so wrong.

I have a problem someone going in primarily as a relief pitcher (Goose Gossage).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their defense (Ozzie Smith w/ his 28 HRs, .262/.337/.328).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their speed (Ricky Henderson w/ his 297 hrs, .279/.401/.419).

DH is apart of the game and Molitor was a hell of a player as a DH.

Rickey is in just because of his speed? All time leader in runs didn't help did it? 3000 hits had little to do with it huh? I could list 5 other stats that make him HOF worthy. Also if he is in just for his SB he does have 500 more then 2nd place.
Personally I am all for all of those 3 being in for the reasons you have a problem with them being in for. With Baines being my fav player I am also for DH's being in. I am hoping Baines goes in before Gar or Oritiz.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

My All Could Be In the HOF Team (No recently retired guys):

C - Ted Simmons (Joe Torre, too. But he'll get in some day)
1B - Steve Garvey
2B - Lou Whitaker
3B - Dick Allen (if you consider him a 3B)
SS - Alan Trammell or Bill Dahlen
OF - Tim Raines
OF - Dale Murphy
OF - Dave Parker
OF - Dwight Evans
SP - Luis Tiant, Ron Guidry
RP - Lee Smith

good list. I am a SOx fan so for me he is a 1B but all should be in.

[mirrf]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

I read inn usa today the other day that only 2500 people showed up for the ceremony.


ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha

if bonds was being inducted the normal 20k+ would have shown up.

the fans have spoken

How many would have showed up if Justin Beiber were inducted?

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by The Game

Rickey is in just because of his speed? All time leader in runs didn't help did it? 3000 hits had little to do with it huh? I could list 5 other stats that make him HOF worthy. Also if he is in just for his SB he does have 500 more then 2nd place.
Personally I am all for all of those 3 being in for the reasons you have a problem with them being in for. With Baines being my fav player I am also for DH's being in. I am hoping Baines goes in before Gar or Oritiz.

No, but that's my point. One single characteristic doesn't define a player's career. Ricky was known quite a bit for his speed. Molitor was a DH.

FWIW, I think Smith, Gossage, Henderson and Molitor all deserve to be there. I'm not saying these guys shouldn't be in. I just think it's silly to pick on Molitor because he was a DH.

[mirrf]

Originally Posted by dodger300

Raines and Trammell need to be in the hall now!!

Raines, no doubt. If Rickey wasn't born, I think Raines would be in. Trammell is more of a tweener for me, but I'd say yes.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

You an NL guy? I think that is so wrong.

I have a problem someone going in primarily as a relief pitcher (Goose Gossage).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their defense (Ozzie Smith w/ his 28 HRs, .262/.337/.328).
I have a problem someone going in primarily because of their speed (Ricky Henderson w/ his 297 hrs, .279/.401/.419).

DH is apart of the game and Molitor was a hell of a player as a DH.

Goose Gossage- This one I kind of get. One reliever typically doesn't pitch enough innings to really make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. Goose averaged about 6% (rough computation) of the innings pitched every year for his teams That being said when compared to his peers he was one of the best relievers in the game so I have no problem with his inclusion as relief pitcher.

Ozzie Smith- I agree that Ozzie was an average hitting player. However using defensive WAR and total zone runs he is the best defensive player ever. And even without WAR or any other metric many would make that same argument. He also ranks 22nd all-time in stolen bases. I think the entire package of Ozzie Smith gets him into the hall despite his average hitting ability.

Ricky Henderson- Henderson was a lot more than just speed. It was quite possibly the best leadoff hitter ever. Not only did he have 3000 hits he also hit almost 300Hrs and drew 100 BBs a year 7 times. The guy is without a doubt deserving of the hall.