New League Forming

[The Professor]

I don't know aout joining now, the rules do look awful similar. Check the BPLA's rules on stadiums then check the ABF's. I really want to join ram, but being in the BPLA, were several ideas seem to come from, I wish you would have asked before hand to see if it was acceptable.

...give the guy a break. So he copied a league constitution, he isn't a serial killer and it doesn't necessarily mean his league will suck or be delinquent (nor does it mean it will automatically succeed).

He should have asked, its the courteous thing to do. Hopefully he's learned his lesson.

I don't think a large portion of us are here to make money or livings off our websites. I'd also wager that a great deal of websites in the OOTP world contain some work that isn't all original. Logos? Page designs?

You've slapped his wrists, called him out. He didn't rip off entire page designs from other leagues (we've seen that before) or commit some other sinister breach of conduct. Take it as flattery, he considered the BPLA Articles the best to use. If he's changed them, great. Better yet, perhaps it would be worthwhile if he provided a "These rules based on the BLPA Articles" and a friendly page link to the league...

...get some nice traffic between leagues.

[UKSubs]

I think we should all be honest here. When starting up a new league, who amongst us has taken the time to create a set of rules for their league from scratch. I did so for the 4CBA a few months ago, but it is very hard to write your own rules so that they make sense and give you the effect that they want. Are there other leagues out there that now use the rules I wrote for the 4CBA? Yes. But the leagues have asked to borrow from our work and that's fine.

The Professor is right. If someone comes up with a good idea in the context of these leagues, we should want people to borrow ideas and acknowledge our work. It's not about money, but our enjoyment of the game and if we come up with something good, aren't we bettering other people's enjoyment of the game?

[sgstauder]

As the designer of 4 OOTP League websites -- the BTTF, 4CBA, SCBL and CDL -- I've seen my work ripped off a couple of different times. And I've had other owners/commishes etc. ask to borrow forms, scripts, etc. that I've created.

And you know what -- big deal.

I've done the same thing to others -- borrowed the UKBL Rules with modifications (and permission); borrowed Bigphesta's NAHHBL team history page, again with modifications, but without permission although I do credit him on the page.

It's part and parcel of the nature of the world wide web, the freedom and sharing of information. It's also how you learn to build a better web page, by borrowing from others.

Just go out there and see how many e-commerce sites are knock-offs of Amazon.com. I should know. The e-commerce site I run and design is a knock-off of their design. It's called learning from people who are spending millions of dollars on customer research to design an efficient business model on the web. When you are a small organization you don't have the luxury of huge budgets and focus groups, but it doens't mean you shouldn't take advantage of them second hand.

And the same thing can be said for designing OOTP sites. You look at the others, the good ones, learn from them and copy them. Look at all the knock-off's of Church's iMLB site, for example.

Sure I would love to be asked first and I firmly believe credit should be given when borrowing from others. It is the polite thing to do and what your mother would expect of you.

But it's not worth getting worked up about.

After all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

[goroyals]

I understand and I am going to join. I know it is hard to think up a complete rules set. I would really be angry though if someone borrowed something like our steroid policy wo/asking, most of the things that aren't original are just minor things that don't matter much. So, the Lexington Steeds will become a member of the ABF!

[sfgiants2003]

I think the issue, at this point, seems to be that ram is conspicuous by his absence. He has not responded in any way. Where is he? What does he have to say about it?

[autarkis33]

<B>I</B> wrote those rules from scratch, every word is mine. I don't care that he used my ideas, I think that is fantastic that someone else would think the league good enough to copy. I am angry because he copied <B>my words</B> and did not ask permission.

If anyone is wondering why I am so upset about someone doing this, check out my profile and look at my profession.

I don't pretend to know the exact rules of copyright on the web, but what he did is nothing short of plagiarism. Even if he had taken every rule and just re-worded it in his own words, that would have been fine. But he didn't he took my words.

As far as people knocking off websites, I don't condone that either, but for the most part people make it their own.

But, for those of that say so what, it's just this, or just that, I spent days developing that site and league. Everything (with the exception of team specific) is mine. I may have borrowed ideas, but never stole.

And imitation may be flattery, but theft is just downright wrong.

[The Professor]

I wrote those rules from scratch, every word is mine. I don't care that he used my ideas, I think that is fantastic that someone else would think the league good enough to copy. I am angry because he copied my words and did not ask permission.

If anyone is wondering why I am so upset about someone doing this, check out my profile and look at my profession.

I don't pretend to know the exact rules of copyright on the web, but what he did is nothing short of plagiarism. Even if he had taken every rule and just re-worded it in his own words, that would have been fine. But he didn't he took my words.

As far as people knocking off websites, I don't condone that either, but for the most part people make it their own.

But, for those of that say so what, it's just this, or just that, I spent days developing that site and league. Everything (with the exception of team specific) is mine. I may have borrowed ideas, but never stole.

And imitation may be flattery, but theft is just downright wrong.

...I, too, am in a profession that - perhaps moreso than any other - harps upon plagiarism. I think most people can certainly understand and sympathize with <i>your</i> position; my statement was directed at people who would immediately move towards black-listing his league because of it...

It would be interesting to hear what Ram has to say...but, personally, I think it would be an issue best solved via private talks and with a simple, sincere, public apology...

...then move on. Ram should acknowledge where he got the rules, give intellectual credit where due, and then both leagues should move on for a successful future before this thread and your energies become immersed in a fire-fight worthy of JBlaze or HornsManiac...

[Long_Long_Name]

Ottawa-Hull eh? Hull doesn't anymore, it's been merged with surrouniding cities and is now called Gatineau. Plus, it's in Canada, you might want to add (CA).

[PCline26]

Originally posted by autarkis33
<B>I</B> wrote those rules from scratch, every word is mine. I don't care that he used my ideas, I think that is fantastic that someone else would think the league good enough to copy. I am angry because he copied <B>my words</B> and did not ask permission.

If anyone is wondering why I am so upset about someone doing this, check out my profile and look at my profession.

I don't pretend to know the exact rules of copyright on the web, but what he did is nothing short of plagiarism. Even if he had taken every rule and just re-worded it in his own words, that would have been fine. But he didn't he took my words.

As far as people knocking off websites, I don't condone that either, but for the most part people make it their own.

But, for those of that say so what, it's just this, or just that, I spent days developing that site and league. Everything (with the exception of team specific) is mine. I may have borrowed ideas, but never stole.

And imitation may be flattery, but theft is just downright wrong.

Perhaps you should make a little footer on all of your pages notifying people that if they want to use your content, to e-mail you. Other than that, you're basically saying, whats here is here, do with it what you please.

I've had my ideas ripped off but I don't care, because this community of e-baseball is fun. I am all for expanding and sharing my ideas even if I don't know someone uses them.

[SimSportsWorld]

Hmm.....


If you look at the Official OOTP League, you will see the following:

© 2002 OOTP Developments. All Rights Reserved.


Now click on every other league on the server, and you'll notice 5 or 6 leagues who have the same exact HTML page.

The point I'm trying to make with this, is that it's just a fun game fellas. If you are at the point where you talk about plagiarism and theft, you need to take a break from the game.

[autarkis33]

Okay, I admit, I never said "Don't take my stuff." But stealing is stealing regardless. I guess I set myself up for it, but I thought that the rest of the community had a sense of decency.

Oh well. S*** happens.

[BaseballFan]

Well based on the him not saying "Don't take my stuff" logic, your saying that it would be fine for me to go out and shoplift 24-7 because they do not have a sign that says "Don't take my stuff"... Thats just BS, and IMO it implyed that rules on another commishes site are his, and if another commish likes them, he should atleast have the common decency to ask him before he blatanly steals them from him...

[autarkis33]

And one other thing, it is not a matter of pride about my rules, it is that they are mine. There are a lot of other things that I am proud of, and to keep them from being ripped off, I don't put them on the net.

That's the last I have to say about it.

[sgstauder]

I totally agree that in a friendly community -- the OOTP one -- borrowing is perfectly fin but you should give credit where credit is due. If you "borrow" the rules, layout, scripts, etc. from another person, give them props since they deserve them.

And I too have come face to face with palagrism... a competitior claiming to my face that he and his wife wrote words that I had written while "sitting around the kitchen table." Words his business didn't even back up.

So yes, it can really piss someone off to have their words/thoughts stolen, which is why permission or props should be asked/given.

[deh34]

Under current copyright law, works receive copyright protection whether or not there is a copyright notice. And the rules in question would most likely be copyrightable as they are completely original (as the author said, he wrote them all by himself and they weren't the same boilerplate rules you see in a lot of leagues) and they are in a fixed form, written on a website.

[sgstauder]

yeah, sure, but try to sue.......

[Officespace99]

Chill about the 'Copying of your rules' stuff. This is an on-line baseball league...not a freaking term paper

[deh34]

true, no reason to SUE! but that's the law. :O)

[scoobz0202]

Why isn't Ram here defending himself?

[sgstauder]

I agree... but the law differs from the reality of hiring lawyers (or law students, sorry Brian...)

Which is why in a friendly, non-profit community I think borrowing with the proper recognization is okay...

If the source is not recognized then it is lame...