My Concern - Page 2

DaleAndre · 04-27-2013, 11:24 AM

Well Stinson, I know very little about OOTP, but I know a ton of guys playing EHM have bought or will buy this game. For me I hope this games turns out superb. I guess as an ex EHM player, I just expected the beta would already be at the EHM 2005 level and this game is nowhere close to that now. I have a tough time understanding that and maybe that's because i am not a game developer. EHM had many good things and yes some flaws, but there was a level there of game quality. We are well behind that level in April of 2013 with FHM so I stay positive, but remain worried.

Vikke · 04-27-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleAndre

Well Stinson, I know very little about OOTP, but I know a ton of guys playing EHM have bought or will buy this game. For me I hope this games turns out superb. I guess as an ex EHM player, I just expected the beta would already be at the EHM 2005 level and this game is nowhere close to that now. I have a tough time understanding that and maybe that's because i am not a game developer. EHM had many good things and yes some flaws, but there was a level there of game quality. We are well behind that level in April of 2013 with FHM so I stay positive, but remain worried.

Yeah, well.. Let me put it this way: you should've seen the first EHM version six months prior to the initial release.

Rob316 · 04-27-2013, 01:09 PM

As a lot of you, I wish this game was to the very least 75% complete or so as I too would truly love to GM a team for more than a year at a time, but with recent crashes I can't simulate more than a few weeks or a month before it drops me out.

The trades are just abysmal, the team transactions page before the seasons starts and during the season looks like a bible full of movements and most of the teams rosters look revamped into looking like swiss cheese!

The Enforcers are always sent down, the no movement clauses don't seem to work and quite frankly, all I can do is lend whatever I feel needs addressing on the forums here in hopes Jeff and the rest of the team hear our pleas!

The list however seems to be growing more each day and with every patch that is sent out for us, no disrespect but a lot of the issues are either the same or getting worse.

I say hang in there, as I'm sure they will have the game ready to rock and roll as time goes by here! I've dusted off the EHM series, updated everything again and will play that in the meantime as the FHM crew builds this game into the glory it will surly become.

Hocky201 · 04-29-2013, 11:53 AM

Part of the opportunity being given here is to point out flaws, crashes and errors. Sadly, nowadays, you can beat everyone over the head and tell them "This is not a finished product" and they'll say "Yeah...yeah....I know....great!" and three days later start complaining. People don't read or listen.

Stinson · 04-29-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hocky201

Sadly, nowadays, you can beat everyone over the head and tell them "This is not a finished product" and they'll say "Yeah...yeah....I know....great!" and three days later start complaining. People don't read or listen.

Or they'll complain right there in the very same breath. "I know it's beta and everything, but..."

tcblcommish · 04-29-2013, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stinson

Or they'll complain right there in the very same breath. "I know it's beta and everything, but..."

That is something people write that annoys the crap out of me when I read it. These people that are coming on here, ripping the product that is in its infant state are doing a huge disservice to the game an the developers.

They don't read what the developers say or just decide to ignore what it was and rip and bash and the new people come on here, read what the people say and turn people off which will hinder and hurt the game overall.

They say the same things, I know it's a beta or I know that the game has 4 months of development left but....

Read what the developers wrote and give it a few minutes to sink in before coming to the forum whining that crashes are an issue.

Stating what is wrong and what's not working is great and helpful but do it the right way

sprague · 04-29-2013, 03:38 PM

I am not sure anyone has actually read what I wrote on here, simply read what they wanted to read so they don't have to do any critical thinking...

My concern is not that the game has work to do- the developers were clear this was AN EARLY stage. The people posting here do understand that

OUR- and i am saying our because I am posting for about 30-40 people in my hockey gaming network, most of whom just gave up on this project back in december, long before any part of the game was released. They read where the priorities of design were then and thought this was not going to accurately reflect actual hockey. You might say I have stuck around to stay on top of the game. only because ootp itself is such a great product. But the designers of ootp are not the designers of this project. hockey is not baseball.

That is the point of this thread- the choice of priority of development compared to how the game will look in september, and that YES the developers are doing a lot of work each week to improve various parts of the game, just a big group feels it is the wrong areas.

unaccurate simulation will be an unaccurate game, which for a sports historical sim could be devastating. to be successful this company has to sell more than to the group of people who are already on this forum, they are going to have to win gamers away from the current and old games on the market- someone who is playing something now to say- yes the fhm will give me better sim results than what i play- so here is my money, i want to play that.

I am speaking for the next wave of potential customers, where the real make or break financial shift will come regarding this product, and without that group- which are hard core accurate simulation guys, they won't come here.
And this group has long been waiting for a proper accurate hockey sim on the market. since none exist, our loyalites are sort of all over the market. But a few thousand people would all jump on the same bandwagon if such a game ever finally existed...

please read this post before responding "its just a beta, hang on, boy you're stupid, didn't you read what the developers said, it's in development man..."

this is about the possible future of the game, and if it will be around in 5 years. to think beyond the box of what a few people on ootp fourm think, but to think of the wider customer base and "what exactly do they want to give up time and money currently spent on what they are playing now for this new product." what in the game is needed for that to happen...

tcblcommish · 04-29-2013, 03:53 PM

You missed the point of what was posted in response to what you said as well. They are developers, not us. They are the ones doing the development not us. They are the ones that do this for a living, not us.

The point being, if YOU think that they are designing things from the wrong places, they say that they are and that things are progressing the way that they should, who are you to say that they aren't? You stated for whatever reason that you are a pro coach but are you a programmer? Have you made a game of this magnitude?

As far as the designers for ootp are not doing the FHm game, does Sebastian do the iPhone ootp app? Ever played it? It's pretty good and works fairly. Why would ootp aka markus bring on someone to program and then not pay attention to what they are doing with their reputation on the line?

I have done some beta testing for products in the past including some for this company and crashes, messed up results and all sorts of screwed up things are part of the process and will get hammered out over time in which they have 4 months to do.

Last thing, did you read what vikke said?

sprague · 04-29-2013, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

You missed the point of what was posted in response to what you said as well. They are developers, not us. They are the ones doing the development not us. They are the ones that do this for a living, not us.

The point being, if YOU think that they are designing things from the wrong places, they say that they are and that things are progressing the way that they should, who are you to say that they aren't? You stated for whatever reason that you are a pro coach but are you a programmer? Have you made a game of this magnitude?

As far as the designers for ootp are not doing the FHm game, does Sebastian do the iPhone ootp app? Ever played it? It's pretty good and works fairly. Why would ootp aka markus bring on someone to program and then not pay attention to what they are doing with their reputation on the line?

I have done some beta testing for products in the past including some for this company and crashes, messed up results and all sorts of screwed up things are part of the process and will get hammered out over time in which they have 4 months to do.

Last thing, did you read what vikke said?

very much. i read over this thread carefully
I am posting not just for me, but for a large group who share these concerns

you might be surprised by who is supporting me in private messaging...but don't want to post openly

tcblcommish · 04-29-2013, 04:14 PM

Maybe if there was more people that posted in a shared response to what you were saying, then one of the developers would speak. I don't get it, not posting for what reason? Makes no sense if there is a large following and there is more posts wouldn't that help to make people speak about where they are going with the programming and development?

Again, I'm not a programmer and have ne'er attempted to do so. I do know some that have and are in no way shocked at how they are doing what they are doing and how the game is 4 months ahead of release.

Maybe I'm more an optimist because of things that I have seen and played and want this to work but questioning the programming? Unless you know what they are doing and how they are doing it, how can you question it? You say that the game engine should be the number one thing worked on but again, how do you know? How do you know that they aren't working on it because things posted in here say otherwise?

Again I go back to my testing with ootp. They release an update and state things worked on but much more was done and each time the game gets closer and closer. If you saw the games being made in each company 5 months before release, you would probably question every game being made.

archibalduk · 04-29-2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprague

That is the point of this thread- the choice of priority of development compared to how the game will look in september, and that YES the developers are doing a lot of work each week to improve various parts of the game, just a big group feels it is the wrong areas.

As Jeff mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a good reason for it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffR

It boils down to how to approach the game's improvement: do you do the thing that leads to a better beta build next week, or the one that lets you get more things done by September? The first way might keep the userbase a little happier by giving them an obvious change to look at every week, but in the long run it shortchanges them by taking an inefficient path that ends up leaving a lot more out of the game. So if it doesn't look like we're fixing the things that seem like obvious priorities to you, please try to keep in mind that we may be looking at a bigger picture.

===========================

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprague

unaccurate simulation will be an unaccurate game, which for a sports historical sim could be devastating. to be successful this company has to sell more than to the group of people who are already on this forum, they are going to have to win gamers away from the current and old games on the market- someone who is playing something now to say- yes the fhm will give me better sim results than what i play- so here is my money, i want to play that.

It's very true; the game has to sell well to be viable in the long term and it needs to be better than the competition. However, it's worth bearing in mind the following:

1) Right now we're in the BETA phase. If you want to compare FHM to any other game, you can only really compare it to betas (if anything at all). Bearing in mind that EHM 2007 is the current benchmark for hockey sims:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikke

Yeah, well.. Let me put it this way: you should've seen the first EHM version six months prior to the initial release.

2) This is the first version of the game. It's not fair to compare it to the "competition" right now - let the game become established first. Even when the first version is released it's going to be continually developed with patches (e.g. it is anticipated that national teams/competitions will be added with one of the first game patches).

3) The devs really do honestly listen to the fans here. They don't post here often because they're working all hours of the day improving the game. There have been many suggestions made by users in the public forums and the private testers' forum that have made it into the game.

4) There is huge potential for future versions of the game. What we have even with the present beta is a very solid foundation. It's just a case of the devs continuing to build upon that. By my own admission, I'll probably stick with EHM 2007 at least for the time being, but there will come a day when FHM will be to hockey what OOTP is to baseball. We just need to be patient.

tcblcommish · 04-29-2013, 04:38 PM

You know, I was going to say enough and let this go after my last post but you come off as someone who cares about the game and wants this to succeed but then in another thread you drop this little nugget to make sure that someone who brings a question about something...

Quote:

the developers are not taking creating accurate hockey seriously

Really? They don't care? How is that you know this? Because 4 months before the sim is released, YOU think that they are working on Euro leagues and just saying "screw the game engine". Come on man, you try to convince people you are here for the game to last 5 years in the future and then you bash the developers because of your perceived idea of how they are programming. Way to support a product

JeffR · 04-29-2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Maybe if there was more people that posted in a shared response to what you were saying, then one of the developers would speak.

I'm not sure what I can say that would clarify things any further: as I said before, our development priorities are intended to produce the best game in September, not the most playable beta next week.

Will the simulation engine be improved? Of course. But that'll happen in a context that makes sense for the game's development as a whole. There are other things that need attention, and some of them are prerequisites for improving simulation elements. Some people may disagree with our priorities, but does anyone seriously think it'd be a good idea for me to manage this project by taking a "what should we work on this week?" poll every Monday?

We're not going to ignore user comments and criticisms (and if I haven't made this clear already, I don't approve of shouting down the people that offer them, so I'd like people to keep that in mind when they see a post asking pointed questions.) But that doesn't mean that we're going to make beta playability and/or the loudest complaints set our short-term priorities.

And some things require a bit of trial-and-error to get working correctly, so they may appear in a fairly broken state when they're introduced, which may give the mistaken impression that the game is headed backwards. If I felt insecure about the way development is proceeding, it might be tempting to drastically cut back on updates so we're always putting the most polished face forward. But I'm not going to do that: I think most people can grasp that development is a bumpy process at times, and immediate feedback on new changes is both valuable and efficient - it's a lot easier to incorporate those suggestions when they're coming while those changes are still ongoing, rather than having to rip things apart later.

Finally, if anyone does have concerns about development but doesn't want to post them here, feel free to send me a private message. I can't guarantee I'll respond, but I'll certainly read it.

tcblcommish · 04-29-2013, 05:19 PM

Sorry Jeff, that comment you quoted wasn't really a knock on you at all. I know it kind of came off that way but I was trying to say that if more of the people posted the same things, you would respond to them. I have tried saying that the game is developing like you have said numerous times and have tried to defend the way it is being done.

I have full faith in this company and know that the game will be good when the release date is here so I'm not worried.

JeffR · 04-29-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Sorry Jeff, that comment you quoted wasn't really a knock on you at all.

Oh, I didn't interpret it that way, that comment just led in nicely to what I wanted to say.

Edster007 · 04-29-2013, 08:44 PM

1) Have some faith in the people who have a franchise of great sims under their belt.
2) We have been given a ground floor entry into the development of this game but we do not sit in the room with them. Let them proceed how they see fit. We don't sit in meetings with them but I am going to go out on a limb and say they have a methodology and not making it up as they go along.
3) If the game engine was hitting on all cylinders I would expect we would see another poster pointing out his concerns in another area.
4) We are still 4 months away from the scheduled release. Way too soon to throw up red flags. Whether you meant to be constructive or not, I find it insulting to the people who have been nothing but honest and up front with us from day 1.
5) I don't care how many people PM'd you, unless they are willing to speak up they dont exist.
6) reread number 1.

I feel qualified to post this as I still play and coach hockey.

jayeburgh · 04-29-2013, 08:58 PM

In my opinion, the game isn't even released yet. I played around with it for a week and put it down. Now I will wait for when it's released and ready for me to do thangs with it.

Keep up the good work!

Ps: Mario Lemieux should be rated higher than any scale you play with.... just saying... Go Pittsburgh!

yzerwing · 04-29-2013, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster007

I feel qualified to post this as I still play and coach hockey.

Not sure how you being a coach and playing hockey gives anymore validity to what is going on in a hockey sim game, then anyone else.

Edster007 · 04-29-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yzerwing

Not sure how you being a coach and playing hockey gives anymore validity to what is going on in a hockey sim game, then anyone else.

It doesn't but was mentioned that it somehow made a difference earlier in the thread.

jbsnadb · 04-29-2013, 10:01 PM

My brother dated Bob Kelly's daughter 20 years ago. How qualified does that make me?

04-29-2013, 03:38 PM	#27
sprague All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,947	I am not sure anyone has actually read what I wrote on here, simply read what they wanted to read so they don't have to do any critical thinking... My concern is not that the game has work to do- the developers were clear this was AN EARLY stage. The people posting here do understand that OUR- and i am saying our because I am posting for about 30-40 people in my hockey gaming network, most of whom just gave up on this project back in december, long before any part of the game was released. They read where the priorities of design were then and thought this was not going to accurately reflect actual hockey. You might say I have stuck around to stay on top of the game. only because ootp itself is such a great product. But the designers of ootp are not the designers of this project. hockey is not baseball. That is the point of this thread- the choice of priority of development compared to how the game will look in september, and that YES the developers are doing a lot of work each week to improve various parts of the game, just a big group feels it is the wrong areas. unaccurate simulation will be an unaccurate game, which for a sports historical sim could be devastating. to be successful this company has to sell more than to the group of people who are already on this forum, they are going to have to win gamers away from the current and old games on the market- someone who is playing something now to say- yes the fhm will give me better sim results than what i play- so here is my money, i want to play that. I am speaking for the next wave of potential customers, where the real make or break financial shift will come regarding this product, and without that group- which are hard core accurate simulation guys, they won't come here. And this group has long been waiting for a proper accurate hockey sim on the market. since none exist, our loyalites are sort of all over the market. But a few thousand people would all jump on the same bandwagon if such a game ever finally existed... please read this post before responding "its just a beta, hang on, boy you're stupid, didn't you read what the developers said, it's in development man..." this is about the possible future of the game, and if it will be around in 5 years. to think beyond the box of what a few people on ootp fourm think, but to think of the wider customer base and "what exactly do they want to give up time and money currently spent on what they are playing now for this new product." what in the game is needed for that to happen... Last edited by sprague; 04-29-2013 at 03:42 PM.

04-29-2013, 03:53 PM	#28
tcblcommish Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 3,439	My Concern You missed the point of what was posted in response to what you said as well. They are developers, not us. They are the ones doing the development not us. They are the ones that do this for a living, not us. The point being, if YOU think that they are designing things from the wrong places, they say that they are and that things are progressing the way that they should, who are you to say that they aren't? You stated for whatever reason that you are a pro coach but are you a programmer? Have you made a game of this magnitude? As far as the designers for ootp are not doing the FHm game, does Sebastian do the iPhone ootp app? Ever played it? It's pretty good and works fairly. Why would ootp aka markus bring on someone to program and then not pay attention to what they are doing with their reputation on the line? I have done some beta testing for products in the past including some for this company and crashes, messed up results and all sorts of screwed up things are part of the process and will get hammered out over time in which they have 4 months to do. Last thing, did you read what vikke said?

04-29-2013, 04:14 PM	#30
tcblcommish Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 3,439	My Concern Maybe if there was more people that posted in a shared response to what you were saying, then one of the developers would speak. I don't get it, not posting for what reason? Makes no sense if there is a large following and there is more posts wouldn't that help to make people speak about where they are going with the programming and development? Again, I'm not a programmer and have ne'er attempted to do so. I do know some that have and are in no way shocked at how they are doing what they are doing and how the game is 4 months ahead of release. Maybe I'm more an optimist because of things that I have seen and played and want this to work but questioning the programming? Unless you know what they are doing and how they are doing it, how can you question it? You say that the game engine should be the number one thing worked on but again, how do you know? How do you know that they aren't working on it because things posted in here say otherwise? Again I go back to my testing with ootp. They release an update and state things worked on but much more was done and each time the game gets closer and closer. If you saw the games being made in each company 5 months before release, you would probably question every game being made.

04-29-2013, 08:44 PM	#36
Edster007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,765	My Concern 1) Have some faith in the people who have a franchise of great sims under their belt. 2) We have been given a ground floor entry into the development of this game but we do not sit in the room with them. Let them proceed how they see fit. We don't sit in meetings with them but I am going to go out on a limb and say they have a methodology and not making it up as they go along. 3) If the game engine was hitting on all cylinders I would expect we would see another poster pointing out his concerns in another area. 4) We are still 4 months away from the scheduled release. Way too soon to throw up red flags. Whether you meant to be constructive or not, I find it insulting to the people who have been nothing but honest and up front with us from day 1. 5) I don't care how many people PM'd you, unless they are willing to speak up they dont exist. 6) reread number 1. I feel qualified to post this as I still play and coach hockey.

04-29-2013, 10:01 PM	#40
jbsnadb All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,098	My brother dated Bob Kelly's daughter 20 years ago. How qualified does that make me? __________________ "And as I wander with my music through the jungles of Despair, my kid will learn guitar and find a street corner somewhere. There he'll make the silence listen to the dream behind the voice, and show his minstrel Hamlet daddy that there only was one choice."

04-27-2013, 11:24 AM	#21
DaleAndre Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 6	Well Stinson, I know very little about OOTP, but I know a ton of guys playing EHM have bought or will buy this game. For me I hope this games turns out superb. I guess as an ex EHM player, I just expected the beta would already be at the EHM 2005 level and this game is nowhere close to that now. I have a tough time understanding that and maybe that's because i am not a game developer. EHM had many good things and yes some flaws, but there was a level there of game quality. We are well behind that level in April of 2013 with FHM so I stay positive, but remain worried.

04-27-2013, 01:09 PM	#23
Rob316 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 50	As a lot of you, I wish this game was to the very least 75% complete or so as I too would truly love to GM a team for more than a year at a time, but with recent crashes I can't simulate more than a few weeks or a month before it drops me out. The trades are just abysmal, the team transactions page before the seasons starts and during the season looks like a bible full of movements and most of the teams rosters look revamped into looking like swiss cheese! The Enforcers are always sent down, the no movement clauses don't seem to work and quite frankly, all I can do is lend whatever I feel needs addressing on the forums here in hopes Jeff and the rest of the team hear our pleas! The list however seems to be growing more each day and with every patch that is sent out for us, no disrespect but a lot of the issues are either the same or getting worse. I say hang in there, as I'm sure they will have the game ready to rock and roll as time goes by here! I've dusted off the EHM series, updated everything again and will play that in the meantime as the FHM crew builds this game into the glory it will surly become.

04-29-2013, 11:53 AM	#24
Hocky201 Bat Boy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 12	Part of the opportunity being given here is to point out flaws, crashes and errors. Sadly, nowadays, you can beat everyone over the head and tell them "This is not a finished product" and they'll say "Yeah...yeah....I know....great!" and three days later start complaining. People don't read or listen.

04-29-2013, 05:19 PM	#34
tcblcommish Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 3,439	Sorry Jeff, that comment you quoted wasn't really a knock on you at all. I know it kind of came off that way but I was trying to say that if more of the people posted the same things, you would respond to them. I have tried saying that the game is developing like you have said numerous times and have tried to defend the way it is being done. I have full faith in this company and know that the game will be good when the release date is here so I'm not worried.

04-29-2013, 08:58 PM	#37
jayeburgh Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Maine Posts: 14	In my opinion, the game isn't even released yet. I played around with it for a week and put it down. Now I will wait for when it's released and ready for me to do thangs with it. Keep up the good work! Ps: Mario Lemieux should be rated higher than any scale you play with.... just saying... Go Pittsburgh!