Track manual edits to players

[Up here in Canada]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You can't stop cheats from cheating anymore than you can stop people from eating. It's simply not possible.

....OR offer an online version of the game.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

would these edits show up in my offline league as well?
If so then i don't want them, i don't want to see my editing in the history.

Exactly.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

Can't really see a reason why anyone would be opposed to this.

This is really funny, because I can't see any reason to ever do it. Look, if you're in an online league where you think that the commissioner is cheating, then leave and find another league. But please don't even suggest messing up the games of all of us who don't suffer from paranoia just because you happen to lie awake at night imagining that your league's commissioner is secretly cheating you using the editor.

As to the home security arguments, one of my neighbors was robbed when the burglars cut through his front door with a chainsaw. My cousin was robbed by three guys that ran a truck into his living room. If somebody wants to rob you bad enough they will find a way and just do it.

[byzeil]

I happen to agree with the idea of somehow, automatically, denoting a player edit for online leagues only. It will not mess up anyone's games IMO as inferred by Wolf. I understand the arguments for and against it and, personally, I think the arguments against it hold little weight if it is for online league only and it is kept as unobtrusive as suggested by the OP.

If I am in an online league and know that the commish is cheating I am out. But there have been a few instances where suspicions were raised but there was no way of knowing. It would actually be of value to the players and to the commish since it would show that the commish is not editing players. I wish I didn't see a value for this but, people being people, I can see a value in it.

[byzeil]

As an alternative all edits, or just player rating edits, in online leagues could be recorded somewhere in the game's database and be displayed via a report. This way the only time anyone sees it is when they view the specific 'Edit Log' report.

[Honorable_Pawn]

First, I don't enjoy online leagues and probably will not venture that way again. I do not want to see asterisks next to my players anywhere on any player report whatsoever. I am completely opposed to that idea.

However, if a separate report could be generated, as suggested, then I have no viable argument opposed to that idea. I understand that many people enjoy online leagues and that expansion of online league play will only increase visibility and sales. If this is an idea that the online playing community embraces then more power to them.

Just don't clog up my experience for extremely limited benefit--separate report good...asterisks bad.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by honorable_pawn

first, i don't enjoy online leagues and probably will not venture that way again. I do not want to see asterisks next to my players anywhere on any player report whatsoever. I am completely opposed to that idea...don't clog up my experience for extremely limited benefit--separate report good...asterisks bad.

qft

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

But please don't even suggest messing up the games of all of us who don't suffer from paranoia just because you happen to lie awake at night imagining that your league's commissioner is secretly cheating you using the editor.

Mess up the game?! To be honest, I was expecting some resistance to this idea from other online league players - mainly ones who still wanted an easy way to cheat, lol. Still a bit amazed offline players have any reaction - good or bad - to this at all.

You have free reign to do whatever you want in an offline league. If you're a Yankee fan and decide Derek Jeter needs 250 power, there's nothing stopping you from giving him that. You are the only one who will see that league file, you will always know you made that change, and the change will be documented on a screen that will never even be opened for 99% of the players in the league.

This change would be tremendous for online league players; but from my perspective at least, it changes absolutely nothing for offline players. Do they think the lack of an asterisk hides the fact that the player was modified? Who are they hiding it from? What benefit would there be to hiding it?

Originally Posted by The Wolf

As to the home security arguments, one of my neighbors was robbed when the burglars cut through his front door with a chainsaw. My cousin was robbed by three guys that ran a truck into his living room. If somebody wants to rob you bad enough they will find a way and just do it.

If only your cousin was more courteous and left his front door unlocked. Then the robbers could have walked right in to take what they needed instead of crashing a truck through a house. Shame on him!

Originally Posted by byzeil

If I am in an online league and know that the commish is cheating I am out. But there have been a few instances where suspicions were raised but there was no way of knowing. It would actually be of value to the players and to the commish since it would show that the commish is not editing players. I wish I didn't see a value for this but, people being people, I can see a value in it.

Yeah, that's the main dilemma. People say if the commish is cheating then quit. Well, there's currently no way to know if sure if the commish is cheating. You may notice a lot of weird stuff going on, but unless he comes right out and admits it you will never know for certain. And usually, you only notice suspicious changes after you've already invested a great deal of time and effort into the league.

Originally Posted by byzeil

As an alternative all edits, or just player rating edits, in online leagues could be recorded somewhere in the game's database and be displayed via a report. This way the only time anyone sees it is when they view the specific 'Edit Log' report.

Yeah, I suggested the scouting report page because I thought it was the easiest and least obtrusive spot but I wouldn't say it's a necessity. Something like a "Online League Audit" report would accomplish all of the intended purposes as well. Good idea....

[The Wolf]

I'm still trying to figure out why you are afraid that your online commissioner is secretly editing players.

Why not just get into a league that has a commissioner whom you trust? Or be a trustworthy one yourself?

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

First, I don't enjoy online leagues and probably will not venture that way again. I do not want to see asterisks next to my players anywhere on any player report whatsoever. I am completely opposed to that idea.

However, if a separate report could be generated, as suggested, then I have no viable argument opposed to that idea. I understand that many people enjoy online leagues and that expansion of online league play will only increase visibility and sales. If this is an idea that the online playing community embraces then more power to them.

Just don't clog up my experience for extremely limited benefit--separate report good...asterisks bad.

Good thread....I started in full agreement with the OP.....as I was going through the opposing replies, I realized that the suggested asterisks would be an eyesore, and the objections to them I found to be valid.

HP has nailed it. A report that logs such changes that is accessible to all, but mandatory viewing for none is an elegant solution to what is an issue for SOME, without changing the viewing/play experience for those that have no issues in regards to the OP's OP.

I don't see how anyone could be opposed to this. It improves the game play for those who desire such a report, and affects not anyone's game play who does not share the concerns of the OP.

Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner.

ADD: I now see that it was byzeil that made the suggestion. Props and Bird to you! Sorry HP, the dinner was misappropriated.

[Up here in Canada]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm still trying to figure out why you are afraid that your online commissioner is secretly editing players.

You just told us a couple of stories, one of which was about a person(s) gaining access to your neighbors house by means of chainsaw and a cousin that had some less than honest people gain access to his house by driving a car through his living room window, yet you are wondering why someone would have concerns over cheating in their online league?

[Up here in Canada]

Why doesn't this game franchise finally step up to the plate and design an online system that is server based for leagues?

There are other companies out there that do this; from what I can tell, OOTP has a much better game.

Maybe this game needs to do this in order to survive and then grow.

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

You just told us a couple of stories, one of which was about a person(s) gaining access to your neighbors house by means of chainsaw and a cousin that had some less than honest people gain access to his house by driving a car through his living room window, yet you are wondering why someone would have concerns over cheating in their online league?

But the point is, you probably don't worry about people driving truck through your house everytime you went out...

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

Why doesn't this game franchise finally step up to the plate and design an online system that is server based for leagues?

There are other companies out there that do this; from what I can tell, OOTP has a much better game.

Maybe this game needs to do this in order to survive and then grow.

Maybe when they start selling enough copies to afford said server, it will happen. Remember, OOTP is very small compared to a lot of those other companies and doesn't have the same resources available.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

You just told us a couple of stories, one of which was about a person(s) gaining access to your neighbors house by means of chainsaw and a cousin that had some less than honest people gain access to his house by driving a car through his living room window, yet you are wondering why someone would have concerns over cheating in their online league?

Apples and oranges. Personally, if I was that paranoid of someone cheating, I wouldn't bother playing in online leagues.

This community has shown over many years that online league Commish's who cheat get caught quickly and don't last. Word will spread like rapid fire through the community and said Commish will find their welcome worn out.

Having said that, I respect the Op's right to feel that way. We are all different and feel differently about these types of things.

The thing is, if you add this, then the individual will just find another way to cheat, such as exporting rosters via csv and making their edits there. Now, would we then see a request to have the export via csv removed from the game?

Cheats are like viruses, you find a cure for one, they just create a more advanced one. Never ending cycle.

[Up here in Canada]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Maybe when they start selling enough copies to afford said server, it will happen. Remember, OOTP is very small compared to a lot of those other companies and doesn't have the same resources available.

.....or maybe the game designer doesn't want to give up control their product and go into a partnership with a company that could provide more money and resources allowing this game to grow. Maybe if I was in Markus' shoes I would feel the same way.

Something will have to give eventually, there is competition and yet, from what I can tell, the competition's game(s) aren't as good as this one. What they offer, though, is a locked up game with sims run on a server.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

.....or maybe the game designer doesn't want to give up control their product and go into a partnership with a company that could provide more money and resources allowing this game to grow. Maybe if I was in Markus' shoes I would feel the same way.

Something will have to give eventually, there is competition and yet, from what I can tell, the competition's game(s) aren't as good as this one. What they offer, though, is a locked up game with sims run on a server.

Probably a very good possibility given the brief partnership with SI.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

This community has shown over many years that online league Commish's who cheat get caught quickly and don't last. Word will spread like rapid fire through the community and said Commish will find their welcome worn out.

That's the problem with the current set up - there's no way for a Commish to be caught. Random stuff happens in this game. An unbelievable set of circumstances is possible. An unbelievable set of circumstances happening over and over is possible. There's enough to raise suspicion, but there's no tangible way to ever know enough to reasonably act on.

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

The thing is, if you add this, then the individual will just find another way to cheat, such as exporting rosters via csv and making their edits there. Now, would we then see a request to have the export via csv removed from the game?

Yes, there could be other ways to cheat, but this takes out the easiest and quickest way. I'm sure The Wolf's cousin had his front door locked when the psycho robbers crashed through the living room with their truck. Didn't do a lot of good in that instance. Still doesn't mean it was not worthwhile to lock the door.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Cheats are like viruses, you find a cure for one, they just create a more advanced one. Never ending cycle.

Agreed. As I understand the OP, however, he is specifically concerned about people (the Commish) having access to the players and using the editor to improve or diminish players under the guise of the "randomness" of the OOTP player dev system.

Why not provide a report that shows a record of the changes made to player ratings that denotes those made by the software and those made by the user?

I get that people don't want this added information presented to them if they are doing player customizations on a grand scale and cluttering up their view (or that they don't want a visual reminder that every time they open up their favorite pitcher that they used the editor to reconstruct his arm so well that Dr Jobe is in awe of the recovery).

Sure the commissioner could export the file and alter the file and import the file back. However, you have forced him to do this because you have added a level of effort and complexity to the scheme. This makes it more time consuming for the nefarious perpetrator of OOTP league slanting than by not having a record of how the player changes were generated.

Wasting the time of someone who would cheat anyone in this community is an instant consequence that I whole heartedly favor.

And the beauty is, it taxes the honest commissioners not 1 second of their time.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

You just told us a couple of stories, one of which was about a person(s) gaining access to your neighbors house by means of chainsaw and a cousin that had some less than honest people gain access to his house by driving a car through his living room window, yet you are wondering why someone would have concerns over cheating in their online league?

Yes, because burglars are real. I'm unhappy with people with imaginary cheating online commissioners trying to waste programming time on their fears.