Referee Ratings

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Sepia included California Burke in his collection he shared in this form way back when. I adjusted the Judgement factor based on what I read in some articles on line. Think Sepia had it at 20

From BoxRec:

After his professional boxing career ended, Billy Burke relocated to California. While there he was the head trainer for the Oakland Oaks of the Pacific Coast League of minor league baseball, as well as at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA). He was a referee, based primarily out of the Bay Area while in California.

BoxRec's ledgend for his boxing career shows him fighting from 1899 thru 1913 as a middleweight with a 16-29-15 record.

Hometown: Philadelphia, PA

Judgement: 20, Articles found, and comments below on a couple issues, Burke's judgement on fights was contested at times and tended to show a flippy floppy judgement even during a fight.

Fouls and Stoppages just put Normal as I seen nothing out of the norm in what I skimmed through.

Found and article in the 02/16/45 edition of The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, CA where Burke was suspended by John Rustigan of the California State Athletic Commission when Billy Burke was unable to produce his scorecard from a fight between Henry Armstrong and Chester Slider. Burke said the scorecard had been snatched from him by a spectator after the bout! It was noted that Burke had awarded the 10 round decision to Slider even though practically every ringsider scored the fight in Armstrong's favor according to the article.

An April 11, 1945 Oakland Tribune article notes that Billy Burke is still suspended and no decision having been made yet to reinstating him. A short note in the March 5, 1945 Oakland Tribune said that Burke had been suspended for 60 days.

A later article found in the 11/24/45 edition of the Spokane Chronicle, Washington, noted that the California State Athletic Commission did suspend Billy Burke for the "incompetent work" in the Billy Smith-Buddy Millard state light-heavyweight championship fight the previous Wednesday.Burke had counted out Millard in the fight, but fans voiced extreme displeasure as in thier opinion Smith was guilty of hitting Millard with a number of low blows.

Photos are from the 03/27/45 Oakland Tribune, 01/14/26 Oakland Tribune, 08/11/38 Oakland Tribune and the last one, I'd found a while back and didn't make note what paper.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Could not find any photos of Canada Burke...yet...

Ratings just went normal on Fouls and Stoppage.
Judgement went with 7. Few articles I scanned on fights he seemed "consistent" and was referee in some pretty big fights thus must have been considered a better than norm referee in Canada.

Billy Burke, referee from Canada.

An editorial piece in the Calgary Herald, Alberta, Canada, 04/28/75 talks about Burke who was from Winnipeg who did a lot of refereeing of title fights in the Chicago area before he moved to Toronto and worked all the main events there for more than 15 yeards. It mentions he was a "no-nonsense arbiter who's years as a boxer before he turned to refereeing made him admirabley suited for his job."

Looked up on BoxRec and they list a Billy Burke from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.Lists only three fights, one in June 1915 and two later in 1917. Would believe this pretty good info that this is one and then same referee/boxer.

[Cap]

Check again. I've posted a pic of Burke the Canadian referee. There are two Billy Burke's from Toronto listed in Boxrec. Pretty sure they are the same guy.

Cap

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by Cap

Check again. I've posted a pic of Burke the Canadian referee. There are two Billy Burke's from Toronto listed in Boxrec. Pretty sure they are the same guy.

Cap

Thanks Cap! I forgot to look in the Referee Images thread!

Here again is the photo Cap had posted on Billy Burke Canada and some info he'd left.
Career: 1927-1958

By the 1950s Burke was considered the premier referee in Central Canada (Ontario and Winnipeg) working all major fights at Toronto's Maple Leaf Gardens.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by Cap

Check again. I've posted a pic of Burke the Canadian referee. There are two Billy Burke's from Toronto listed in Boxrec. Pretty sure they are the same guy.

Cap

And OK Thanks on the note about BoxRec. I did not even realize they had information on there for the referees!! I'd never looked at that.

Thank you Cap for setting me straight!
Rocco

[Cap]

Ooops! What a mistake I made. Should read Ontario and Manitoba. Slip of the brain. Burke worked big fights in Winnipeg before moving to Ontario where he worked the McIntyre-Wadsworth middleweight title fight in Ottawa. Then moved on to Toronto. The pic was taken of Burke working a fight in the late fifties.

Cap

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by Cap

Ooops! What a mistake I made. Should read Ontario and Manitoba. Slip of the brain. Burke worked big fights in Winnipeg before moving to Ontario where he worked the McIntyre-Wadsworth middleweight title fight in Ottawa. Then moved on to Toronto. The pic was taken of Burke working a fight in the late fifties.

Cap

I hate we lost giving the thanks!

[Cap]

Re: the original ratings in this thread, if the referee judgement rating is supposed to be between 1 & 100, what are we to make of referees with a "0" rating? I would think Arthur Mercante Sr, who is rated "5" would be considered one of the most efficient third men in history. Which referee would you rate higher than him?

Unless the guy was a total nob, wouldn't most refs have a rating between 5 and 10? Even the best have made the occasional error in judgement.

Cap

[pilight]

The refs that come with the game range from 5 to 25 with all of them having ratings divisible by 5. That essentially gives you five ratings for refs: 5 (best), 10, 15, 20, 25 (worst). That's the scale I've worked with when rating refs.

Obviously there are worse refs than the ones being rated, since they're all known and have gotten high profile assignments. Your local ref who just works weekends might be 45 or worse.

[Cap]

Originally Posted by pilight

The refs that come with the game range from 5 to 25 with all of them having ratings divisible by 5. That essentially gives you five ratings for refs: 5 (best), 10, 15, 20, 25 (worst). That's the scale I've worked with when rating refs.

Obviously there are worse refs than the ones being rated, since they're all known and have gotten high profile assignments. Your local ref who just works weekends might be 45 or worse.

That sounds logical. I've edited my refs to eliminate any other rating. I think, with few exceptions, celebrity refs (current champions) did a crummy job.

Another thing to consider, refs back in the day scored the fight, sometimes with the assist of two judges, more often alone.

Cap

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Benny is in the database. Not sure if he was original, probably or added by sepia.
The photos attached the file name has the newpaper and date of edition that I found these.

Referee from 1925-1949
residence: California
Born:8/26/1895 or 9/15/1895?
Died: 8/27/49

01/05/27 Daily News, LA, CA - Short note mentions Benny Whitman said friends

received a card the day before announcing he'd been married 2 day before and was

off on his honeymoon.He forgot to mention in his note who he married!

09/08/31 - Los Angeles Evening Express - Announces that Benny Whitman and 11

other referees were reinstated by the state athletic commision after having been

suspended sever month ago.

05/20/37 The Pasadena Post, CA- Account of Benny Whitman now working as a

promoter in the Pasadena area, promoting a fight at the Pasadena Arena which

brought boxing back to Pasadena after a five month absence.

09/16/41 - The Los Angeles Times - A short account notes that Benny Whitman's

father, Max Whitman had passed away, age 73, Benny learning of it the day

before.Article says the news came that day before (9/15/41) on Benny's 46th

birthday.
So puts Benny's birthdate on 9/15/1895?

04/23/46 - Valley Times (North Hollywood, CA) - Special mention in "The Inside

Track" by Sid Ziff, that Benny Whitman would be receiving the Helm's Athletic

Foundation medal of the month award at the Olympic that night in recognition of

his record as a referee. Ziff notes that Whitman has refereed more than 11,000

boxing contests since 1921.Whitman is quoted saying he feels he holds the record

for most bouts refereed and that it would never be matched. Why? per the

article.."Whitman began his career as a referee in the old four-round days. In

those days, the promoter designated a "house" referee adn if he was any good at

all, he had a permanent job. In a period of five years Whitman worked five shows

every week refereeing the entire card of six or seven bouts. Now every state

athletic commission has long lists of referees who alternate assignments so there

is little chance of Whitman's record being overtaken."

08/28/49 - The Los Angeles Times - Article announcing that Benny Whitman died

yesterday (8/27/49) after being ill for sixe weeks with a rare liver ailment. The

article says Whitman had celebrated his 54th birthday on Friday. Calendar August

1949 the 28th was Sunday so 8/26/49 was Friday which would put his date of birth

as 8/26/1895?
The article goes on to mention Whitman was a native of New York where he was an

amateur boxer in his youth. He was married to Ida whom they had a son Jerry.Benny

had 3 brothers and four sisters .

BoxRec notes that Whitman worked as a promoter only in 1937, and also as a judge

from 1941-49 while also refereeing.

From the BoxRec records on Whitman, appeared to referee exclusively in California

and predominently in Southern area.

TITLE FIGHTS REFEREE:
07/01/41 NBA World Featherweight, Richie Lemos vs Petey Scalzo
08/02/41 California State Middleweight, Eddie Booker vs Shorty Hogue
11/18/41 NBA World Featherweight, Richie Lemos vs Jackie Wilson
01/02/42 California State Bantamweight, Manuel Ortiz vs Tony Olivera
03/31/42 California State Welterweight, California Jackie Wilson vs Pedro Ortega
08/14/42 California State Middleweight, Eddie Booker vs Shorty Hogue
10/16/42 California State Light Heavyweight, Jack Coggins vs Johnny Romero
12/11/42 California State Middleweight, Archie Moore vs Eddie Booker
05/26/43 WORLD BANTAMWEIGHT TITLE, Manuel Ortiz vs Joe Robleto
10/27/43 NBA World Lightweight, Sammy Angott vs Slugger White
03/17/44 California State Light Heavyweight, Red Nibert vs Jack Coggins
03/24/44 California State Light Heavyweight, Jack Coggins vs Red Nibert
11/14/44 WORLD BANTAMWEIGHT TITLE, Manuel Ortiz vs Luis Castillo
04/30/46 NBA World Lightweight, Ike Williams vs Enrique Bolanos
08/20/46 California state Light Heavyweight, Oakland Billy Smith vs Bobby Zander

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Here's the txt with everything I pasted in yesterday's post.
Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Originally Posted by pilight

The refs that come with the game range from 5 to 25 with all of them having ratings divisible by 5. That essentially gives you five ratings for refs: 5 (best), 10, 15, 20, 25 (worst). That's the scale I've worked with when rating refs.

Obviously there are worse refs than the ones being rated, since they're all known and have gotten high profile assignments. Your local ref who just works weekends might be 45 or worse.

Appreciate you posting this. I'd not looked at all the refs in the data base to see if there was any real pattern to them.

Rocco

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Rocco Del Sesto

Appreciate you posting this. I'd not looked at all the refs in the data base to see if there was any real pattern to them.

Rocco

I didn't for a long time. Then I thought my fictional universe would be more fun if some of the retired fighters became refs or judges. So I looked at them to see what was typical.

I wound up making fictional refs by rolling a d20 and adding 5 to get their judgement. Fouls and stoppages are a d6; 1 = lenient/early, 2-5 = normal, 6 = strict/late.

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Residence: San Pedro, California
Referee: 1925-1961
Judge: 1941-1963
Birth: 1898 or 1900
Death: 3/26/65

11/10/42 - The Los Angeles Times - Announcement that Charley Randolph was sworn

into the navy as a coxswain in the US Navy Reserve.It mentions his age as 43 and

that he started officiating in California in 1922. Randolph got is start in 1921.

A Sully Montgomery and Jim Barry, no mention who they were could not agree on a

third man for a 20 round bout scheduled at Mexicali. Randolph who had been

helping with the promotion of the bout volunteered to officiate. He'd been

working as a ring third man ever since. The article goes on to mention Charley

was born near Luna Park, which later became Chutes Park and then Washington Park

before the Wrigleys purchased the Los Angeles ball club and built Wrigley Field.

Charley played semi-pro ball and between referee assignments he worked in movie

studios as "bit" player and then more recently was working in the shipping

department of teh Douglas aircraft plant. This was actually to be Randolph's

second stint in the service as he served in the last world war and made five

convoy trips across the Atlanta in the USS Montana which was a class of cruiser

that provided convoy escort. Charley engaged in 10 amateur bouts during WW I, but

only had one professional fight in his life (No note of in BoxRec that I could

find). Article quoted Charley about that fight, "I won on a foul and decided to

try something different".

03/27/65 - The Los Angeles Times - Announcement that Charley Randolph died Friday

(03/26/65) morning after a lingering illness. "Randolph, 67, who retired as an

active referee three years ago worked most of the big boxing shows stagd in Los

Angeles during the past 35 years. He began his career in 1927." Mentions Charley

left his wife, Nellie and a brother, Lee Randolph.
An announcement of his death by Valley Times, North Hollywood on this same date

places Randolph's age as 65.It also mentions he had a daughter, Lucille and a

grandson, Frank Schenow.

TITLE FIGHTS REFEREE:
06/06/39 - Vacant American Flyweight, Manuel Ortiz vs Jackie Jurich
10/28/41 - Vacant California State Heavyweight, Al Bray vs Yancey Henry
04/20/43 - Maryland Version World Lightweight, Slugger White vs John Thomas
03/14/44 - WORLD BANTAMWEIGHT TITLE, Manuel Ortiz vs Ernesto Aguilar
12/12/44 - California State Light Heavyweight, Jack Chase vs Watson Jones
10/22/46 - California State Featherweight, Manuel Ortiz vs Carlos Chavez
05/25/48 - WORLD LIGHTWIEGHT TITLE, Ike Williams vs Enrique Bolanos
12/05/50 - California State Lightweight, John L. Davis vs Freddie Herman
09/28/51 - California State Featherweight, Fabela Chavez vs Lauro Salas
04/21/56 - California State Middleweight, Charlie Sawyer vs Neal Rivers
06/08/57 - Vacant California State Middleweight, Neal Rivers vs Bobby Jones
10/16/58 - California State Bantamweight, Herman Marques vs Boots Monroe
07/25/59 - California State Welterweight, Charley Tombstone Smith vs Reybon

Stubbs
05/27/60 - WORLD WELTERWEIGHT TITLE, Benny Kid Paret vs Don Jordan

Images labeled with Newspapers found in.

[bear]

Like the way this threa has been revive

[pilight]

Normally I just rate refs as I need them to do fights in my historical title universes (currently on late 1930's bantamweight title). When this thread was revived I thought it would be fun (and educational) to rate all the refs in referee picture thread. Obviously those would be the ratings of most interest. Now that I've finished there are nearly 800 refs in my db.

I've chosen to attach them as a zipped folder of xml files since the forum apparently doesn't allow uploading of dat files anymore.

Pictures to follow...

[pilight]

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