Earned runs bug - Page 2

elmerlee · 06-04-2010, 07:28 PM

Has anyone at OOTP even taken the time to understand when runs should
be unearned? After 10 or 11 versions of this game this is really uncalled for.
Once again I am turned off on this company.

Is there a refund offer or is the almighty demo the protector?

pstrickert · 06-04-2010, 07:39 PM

I'll disregard your first question.

I will say this, though: During beta testing for OOTP11, Markus decided to recode this part of the game engine. He wanted to get this part of the game right. SteveP (and others) have since identified at least a dozen (possible) problems. We'll see if Markus fixes them when he returns to work on the next patch. I'm confident that he will.

elmerlee · 06-04-2010, 07:48 PM

We will see. Some of the reported items are simple coding fixes. Some would be much more difficult. Luckily the simple ones will fix 90% of the problems.
My question is why should it take months to fix such an important problem as this?

And before anyone asks - I have had experience in working on this very thing for a baseball sim.

pstrickert · 06-04-2010, 07:58 PM

The plan all along, as I understand it, was for Markus to address these issues in the next patch. I did not think he would take a two-month break between patches, but so be it.

Killing Time · 06-04-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmerlee

My question is why should it take months to fix such an important problem as this?

Because the developers are out on a big bender?

bailey · 06-04-2010, 10:11 PM

What about this one?

1st and 2nd no outs, runners both got singles. The score is 1-0 in favor of the fielding team in the top of the 5th inning.

Next batter reaches on E6 throwing error (assuming to 1st base). Must have been a slowly hit ball the SS had to charge so no DP option.

With the error it's bases loaded and no outs, but without the error it would have been 2nd and 3rd 1 out.

Next batter grounds out to 2nd base, and completes a double play and the runner from 3rd scores. Without the error, the runner on 3rd would also have scored because the fielder given game time and score normally would opt for the sure out at first.

Therefore, the run should be earned. Is that right? OOTP calls the run unearned.

endgame · 06-04-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I'll disregard your first question.

Aha. There's the pstrickert I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmerlee

I have had experience in working on this very thing for a baseball sim.

Is that right? Does it handle every situation in this area perfectly now? Where can I check it out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I did not think he would take a two-month break between patches, but so be it.

Ah. There he is again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killing Time

Because the developers are out on a big bender?

I won't discount the possibility that he is, even now, currently working on that patch. I've seen it before. An undesireable silence ends up being an unofficial and unannounced focused workload.

When this is all said and done, will he get everything? Nope. Will he have tried diligently with a LOT of pressure both in the main forums and behind the scenes? Yes.

The official word was that the next patch would be out before the all-star break. Nothing's changed, except the tenor of our original response to that announcement.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 06-05-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmerlee

Some of the reported items are simple coding fixes. Some would be much more difficult. Luckily the simple ones will fix 90% of the problems.

I don't think so. I think most of the problems would involve replaying a "virtual inning." I'll go back and double-check that.

[arguable insult snipped]

elmerlee · 06-05-2010, 12:57 PM

In no way would fixing 90% of the unearned runs require a virtual inning.

Previous OOTP games did not have a virtual inning and they had only about 10% of the problem of version eleven.

[insult snipped]

Eckstein 4 Prez · 06-05-2010, 01:09 PM

Unearned runs have been a huge problem with the game for a long time. If you don't believe me fire up one of the old versions and take a look - you'll certainly find much more than "10%" of the current problem.

The problem now seems to be that if a player advances even one base on an error the game thinks that's an unearned run if it scores under any circumstances. I don't think the game has always seen it that way for guys who get on with a hit, then advance a base or two on an error. Fixing that would allow for improved ER allocation for guys who advance on catcher's throwing errors, take an extra base on outfielder errors, etc.

It also wouldn't catch the very common situation where a guy scores on an error (that wouldn't have been the third out) and then the next batter hits a home run. That's been a huge problem with OOTP since I've been playing it (version 4). Since most of the really game-breaking bugs have been ironed out, I've decided that this is the issue I want to highlight to get fixed in OOTP12.

I'm going to leave the personal comments alone and make future observations about this bug in a different thread. Please do me the courtesy of not cluttering up that thread with your observations.

pstrickert · 06-05-2010, 01:11 PM

I can understand elmerlee's frustration. Before he took his break from OOTP, Markus resolved the urgent bugs. That's well and good. He left the less urgent ones unresolved. These -- together with more recent bug reports -- have gone unresolved for two months now. It could, in fact, be another month before we see the next patch. I know the game is playable in its present state. Some irksome bugs remain, though. I would like to see them cleaned up. I can't blame Markus for taking a break from OOTP. (He and "the boys" certainly deserved it.) But I wonder if Markus, in retrospect, should have completed one more patch before he left.

elmerlee · 06-05-2010, 01:44 PM

This Eckstein guy does not get his facts straight.

I just ran a simmed season with version eight and ---
#1 the number of errors was right on.
#2 the percent ER was right on at 88.6%
#3 Were all things exactly right in version 8..Probably not but
they were close enough for me.
#4 And the two instances he names would be easy fixes and
they must have been fine before.

I don't mean to keep harping on this but maybe many things
Eckstein sights as facts should be taken with a grain of salt.

JustinM · 06-05-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

In your honor, I'm going to start avoiding most posters with fewer than 200 posts. I hope that makes you feel self-important.

EDIT: Though it doesn't look like you needed the help.

Aw

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmerlee

This Eckstein guy does not get his facts straight.

I just ran a simmed season with version eight and ---
#1 the number of errors was right on.
#2 the percent ER was right on at 88.6%
#3 Were all things exactly right in version 8..Probably not but
they were close enough for me.
#4 And the two instances he names would be easy fixes and
they must have been fine before.

I don't mean to keep harping on this but maybe many things
Eckstein sights as facts should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not to quibble, but the "number of errors" and "percent ER" only means that the end result was close, not that the actual scoring was correct.

In math, you can get to the right answer by taking the wrong route. It doesn't mean you did the problem correctly. This is no different.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 06-05-2010, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I can understand elmerlee's frustration. Before he took his break from OOTP, Markus resolved the urgent bugs. That's well and good. He left the less urgent ones unresolved. These -- together with more recent bug reports -- have gone unresolved for two months now. It could, in fact, be another month before we see the next patch. I know the game is playable in its present state. Some irksome bugs remain, though. I would like to see them cleaned up. I can't blame Markus for taking a break from OOTP. (He and "the boys" certainly deserved it.) But I wonder if Markus, in retrospect, should have completed one more patch before he left.

I do think it's worthwhile to fix the simpler ER problems in the next patch. However, I don't want anyone to be left with the mistaken impression that anything other than a "virtual inning" is going to actually solve the problem. Sure - let's fix what can be fixed in a patch. But my real goal is to have the ER problem taken care of once and for all in OOTP12.

SteveP · 06-05-2010, 04:43 PM

AFAIK, Markus thought he had made a significant improvement to the programming for this in OOTP11. The problems that still existed (or were made worse) didn't start to come to light until near the end of beta. He took a shot at fixing it, and it didn't work as well as he hoped. Whoever hasn't had that happen to them can certainly start throwing stones.

The programming has problems with PBs. It also has problems with errors that merely advance runners 90 feet (of which PBs are a subset). Hopefully, Markus can figure out a better solution for these.

Then there are the more obscure situations that grate on people who really know the rules. I am not one of those people, but I've learned a few things. I've posted examples of these for Markus, but I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to postpone doing any complex and time-consuming programming to deal with all of them.

My guess is the average SP in the game has maybe 1-3 improperly called ERs during a season (either in his favor or the other way). I personally think the impact on his stats aren't worth getting too worked up about. But others will disagree. Just my

pstrickert · 06-05-2010, 05:06 PM

Thanks, SteveP. That's kind of how I remember it, too. I don't think we had time to ferret out the problems during beta testing (after Markus recoded this part of the game engine). Markus meant well, I'm sure. But he took one step forward and two steps back, IMO. Hopefully, he'll be able to iron things out soon.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 06-05-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

My guess is the average SP in the game has maybe 1-3 improperly called ERs during a season (either in his favor or the other way). I personally think the impact on his stats aren't worth getting too worked up about. But others will disagree. Just my

I'm certainly not telling Markus to get back to work or anything like that. I'm pretty happy with the game as it now exists.

But the above is just nonsense. I would say that in more than 50% of the innings in which a run scores where there was also an error or passed ball, the game incorrectly allocates either the ER/UER or the RBI/no RBI. In fact, I play out all my games, so I'll start a new thread and start logging them (correct and incorrect).

pstrickert · 06-06-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

My guess is the average SP in the game has maybe 1-3 improperly called ERs during a season (either in his favor or the other way). I personally think the impact on his stats aren't worth getting too worked up about. But others will disagree. Just my

I decided to look at each of the past 25 games for one of the teams in my current league. I examined each and every error and passed ball in these games for both teams. I found only one clear mistake in scoring. How many mistakes would that be, prorated for the season? Six? (Three for the one team -- and three for their opponents?) So, if anything, SteveP, you may have OVERestimated the occurrence.

SteveP · 06-06-2010, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I decided to look at each of the past 25 games for one of the teams in my current league. I examined each and every error and passed ball in these games for both teams. I found only one clear mistake in scoring. How many mistakes would that be, prorated for the season? Six? (Three for the one team -- and three for their opponents?) So, if anything, SteveP, you may have OVERestimated the occurrence.

Well, I didn't want to start any flame wars by giving my real estimate ...

kq76 · 06-06-2010, 10:38 PM

I've moved the post count tangent to OT and locked it. Warnings may be coming. Let's please keep things clean, guys.

06-05-2010, 12:57 PM	#29
elmerlee Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 215	In no way would fixing 90% of the unearned runs require a virtual inning. Previous OOTP games did not have a virtual inning and they had only about 10% of the problem of version eleven. [insult snipped] Last edited by kq76; 06-06-2010 at 10:34 PM. Reason: insult snipped

06-05-2010, 01:09 PM	#30
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	Unearned runs have been a huge problem with the game for a long time. If you don't believe me fire up one of the old versions and take a look - you'll certainly find much more than "10%" of the current problem. The problem now seems to be that if a player advances even one base on an error the game thinks that's an unearned run if it scores under any circumstances. I don't think the game has always seen it that way for guys who get on with a hit, then advance a base or two on an error. Fixing that would allow for improved ER allocation for guys who advance on catcher's throwing errors, take an extra base on outfielder errors, etc. It also wouldn't catch the very common situation where a guy scores on an error (that wouldn't have been the third out) and then the next batter hits a home run. That's been a huge problem with OOTP since I've been playing it (version 4). Since most of the really game-breaking bugs have been ironed out, I've decided that this is the issue I want to highlight to get fixed in OOTP12. I'm going to leave the personal comments alone and make future observations about this bug in a different thread. Please do me the courtesy of not cluttering up that thread with your observations. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

06-06-2010, 10:38 PM	#40
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 12,060	I've moved the post count tangent to OT and locked it. Warnings may be coming. Let's please keep things clean, guys. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project) For Beta/Devs: Full screen (1920x1080) Last edited by kq76; 06-06-2010 at 10:40 PM.

06-04-2010, 07:28 PM	#21
elmerlee Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 215	Has anyone at OOTP even taken the time to understand when runs should be unearned? After 10 or 11 versions of this game this is really uncalled for. Once again I am turned off on this company. Is there a refund offer or is the almighty demo the protector?

06-04-2010, 07:39 PM	#22
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 17,064	I'll disregard your first question. I will say this, though: During beta testing for OOTP11, Markus decided to recode this part of the game engine. He wanted to get this part of the game right. SteveP (and others) have since identified at least a dozen (possible) problems. We'll see if Markus fixes them when he returns to work on the next patch. I'm confident that he will.

06-04-2010, 07:48 PM	#23
elmerlee Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 215	We will see. Some of the reported items are simple coding fixes. Some would be much more difficult. Luckily the simple ones will fix 90% of the problems. My question is why should it take months to fix such an important problem as this? And before anyone asks - I have had experience in working on this very thing for a baseball sim.

06-04-2010, 07:58 PM	#24
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 17,064	The plan all along, as I understand it, was for Markus to address these issues in the next patch. I did not think he would take a two-month break between patches, but so be it.

06-04-2010, 10:11 PM	#26
bailey Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,426	What about this one? 1st and 2nd no outs, runners both got singles. The score is 1-0 in favor of the fielding team in the top of the 5th inning. Next batter reaches on E6 throwing error (assuming to 1st base). Must have been a slowly hit ball the SS had to charge so no DP option. With the error it's bases loaded and no outs, but without the error it would have been 2nd and 3rd 1 out. Next batter grounds out to 2nd base, and completes a double play and the runner from 3rd scores. Without the error, the runner on 3rd would also have scored because the fielder given game time and score normally would opt for the sure out at first. Therefore, the run should be earned. Is that right? OOTP calls the run unearned.

06-05-2010, 01:11 PM	#31
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 17,064	I can understand elmerlee's frustration. Before he took his break from OOTP, Markus resolved the urgent bugs. That's well and good. He left the less urgent ones unresolved. These -- together with more recent bug reports -- have gone unresolved for two months now. It could, in fact, be another month before we see the next patch. I know the game is playable in its present state. Some irksome bugs remain, though. I would like to see them cleaned up. I can't blame Markus for taking a break from OOTP. (He and "the boys" certainly deserved it.) But I wonder if Markus, in retrospect, should have completed one more patch before he left.

06-05-2010, 01:44 PM	#32
elmerlee Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 215	This Eckstein guy does not get his facts straight. I just ran a simmed season with version eight and --- #1 the number of errors was right on. #2 the percent ER was right on at 88.6% #3 Were all things exactly right in version 8..Probably not but they were close enough for me. #4 And the two instances he names would be easy fixes and they must have been fine before. I don't mean to keep harping on this but maybe many things Eckstein sights as facts should be taken with a grain of salt.

06-05-2010, 04:43 PM	#35
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	AFAIK, Markus thought he had made a significant improvement to the programming for this in OOTP11. The problems that still existed (or were made worse) didn't start to come to light until near the end of beta. He took a shot at fixing it, and it didn't work as well as he hoped. Whoever hasn't had that happen to them can certainly start throwing stones. The programming has problems with PBs. It also has problems with errors that merely advance runners 90 feet (of which PBs are a subset). Hopefully, Markus can figure out a better solution for these. Then there are the more obscure situations that grate on people who really know the rules. I am not one of those people, but I've learned a few things. I've posted examples of these for Markus, but I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to postpone doing any complex and time-consuming programming to deal with all of them. My guess is the average SP in the game has maybe 1-3 improperly called ERs during a season (either in his favor or the other way). I personally think the impact on his stats aren't worth getting too worked up about. But others will disagree. Just my

06-05-2010, 05:06 PM	#36
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 17,064	Thanks, SteveP. That's kind of how I remember it, too. I don't think we had time to ferret out the problems during beta testing (after Markus recoded this part of the game engine). Markus meant well, I'm sure. But he took one step forward and two steps back, IMO. Hopefully, he'll be able to iron things out soon.