Maximizing Chance of Getting a Third Pitch?

[Pineapple]

Very good points injury log. I, too, love the fact that it is random especially since I play in an online league. The fact that it is random gives it a strategic element when drafting in an online league. Do I burn a 1st round draft pick on that stud closer with only third pitches in hopes of him developing a third pitch?

I know users have wanted a way for users to aid a pitchers to learn a third pitch citing that it is ridiculous that a pitcher cannot be "forced" to learn a new pitch.

The way I imagine it, every two-pitch pitcher is trying to learn a new pitch. It's just most of them become unsuccessful at it. Just because they are unsuccessful does not mean they are not trying.

We've seem Mariano Rivera develop a killer cutter that made him one of the best closers of all time. Just because Rivera has an awesome cutter, it does not mean every John Doe can develop a cutter as effective as Rivera's.

Not everyone can develop a Randy Johnson slider or Trevor Hoffman change up. I don't have evidence to support this but I think learning a new pitch is harder than most people think? Sure anyone can throw any type of pitch they want. It's just a matter of grip and throwing motion. But throwing it effectively is a totally different story. Not everyone can throw a curveball like Bert Blyleven. If developing a pitch was so easy, every 5.00+ ERA pitcher would have already developed a Rivera cutter, Hoffman change up, and Brandon Webb sinker.

This is why a Roy Halladay or a Tim Lincecum makes so much money. No pitcher can pitch like them.

Originally Posted by injury log

Only Markus knows for certain, but I think it's determined at random who learns a third pitch. Learning a new pitch is essentially a 'talent boost', so it also only seems to happen to younger pitchers. If Intelligence or Work Ethic play a role in determining who receives talent boosts (and I don't think they do, but I don't know for sure - my understanding was that they only influence the direction of small ratings changes), I imagine they probably also play a role in determining who learns new pitches. In any event, it's a very rare thing in the game, so don't count on any of your pitchers developing that killer knuckle curve.



This came up on beta, as endgame mentions above, and I made my case against:

* Right now, we can have a perfect development model, since the user can't intervene in player development. The instant you give the user control over how players develop, we get away from real player development and into fictional player development.

* We also, with the new pitching model, finally got away from an issue that plagued earlier versions of OOTP: it used to be that a guy's Stamina would creep up over time, and you'd have a lot of good relievers who became starters later in their careers. That's pretty rare in real life. If you can train people in new pitches, that's going to start happening all the time again.

* For gameplay reasons, there needs to be some disadvantage to training a new pitch; otherwise you'd just have every pitcher in your system working on that screwball. What could that disadvantage possibly be? What real life data do we have to base this on?

* As someone pointed out in beta, the user can't determine whether a player develops his bunting skills, or baserunning skills, or control, so why should he have the option to determine whether a pitcher learns a forkball?

* This would add yet another exploit to the game; the human user is likely to be able to determine more intelligently than the AI when it will be profitable to train a guy in a new pitch.

* I also think that adding this kind of control completely changes OOTP from a baseball sim into something more like those fantasy games where you might train your dwarf character in archery, winemaking and herbalism. That's not the kind of game I want to play when I load up OOTP.

It would be a great idea for a game like ITP, I imagine (never played it), but I don't like it for OOTP.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Pineapple

The way I imagine it, every two-pitch pitcher is trying to learn a new pitch. It's just most of them become unsuccessful at it. Just because they are unsuccessful does not mean they are not trying.

Those are my thoughts as well.

[Corsairs]

Since we're bringing up our beta conversation, I'll share my thoughts from that discussion. Let me preface by saying that I agree there's a risk of introducing too much micromanagement, and any design choices have to be weighed against that risk. One approach which I think could be a potentially reasonable compromise - and this was something suggested by endgame - would be to attach an increased chance of success in developing specific pitches to the strengths of individual pitching coaches. This would make one's choice of pitching coach so much more meaningful than it currently is.

I envision a setup where pitching coaches receive ratings for their ability to assist in the development of individual pitches. Any given pitching coach would only be rated for their ability to develop a few pitches (between 1-3). For any pitch where a coach has a rating, he provides his students with a bonus to their chance to learn/improve upon that pitch. For pitches where a coach is not rated, he would provide a minuscule boost. In either case, the exact size of the boost is modified by his overall Teach Pitching rating, and improving upon existing pitches would be much more easily accomplished than learning a new pitch outright.

Now you'd have a whole new realm of considerations when hiring a pitching coach. Say you've got a young pitcher with a nice fastball and slider, but he's going to need a third pitch to start. He has a changeup in his arsenal, but it's a work in progress. You're choosing between two pitching coaches. One specializes in training changeups, but his overall Teach Pitching rating isn't so hot. Another is a genius in terms of his Teach Pitching skill, but he's not someone who is known for his ability to teach the changeup; he's better known for developing curveballs.

Do I go with the guy who really knows how to teach a changeup? Remember, my young hurler already has a little changeup skill, and it's easier to improve than it is to learn a whole new pitch. Or do I go with the guy who is a really awesome general pitching instructor? Maybe he won't be as good as the other guy for helping my kid improve upon his chanegup, but if he could teach him that sweet curve... watch out!

What I like about this approach is that it's not a guaranteed win. The user is going to have to make a choice - hire with a focus on improving current pitches, or hire with a focus on learning new pitches? Taking one path may lead to benefits for some players, stagnation for others. That addresses IL's point about there needing to be some disadvantage to training a new pitch (a point on which I completely agree).

[SmoothGentleman]

That would be an awesome addition, that would add a ton to the game. Maybe some Pitching Coaches could teach rare pitches such as the Gyroball and what not. The possibility is endless with that addition.

[Nutlaw]

Yeah, pitching coaches with individual pitch focus has been something I've wanted to see for a while, as well. I want Dave Duncan to teach everyone and their mother to throw a sinker, just like in real life.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Yeah, pitching coaches with individual pitch focus has been something I've wanted to see for a while, as well. I want Dave Duncan to teach everyone and their mother to throw a sinker, just like in real life.

He is the man! Love the Duncan.

[SmoothGentleman]

Originally Posted by Corsairs

Any given pitching coach would only be rated for their ability to develop a few pitches (between 1-3). For any pitch where a coach has a rating, he provides his students with a bonus to their chance to learn/improve upon that pitch. For pitches where a coach is not rated, he would provide a minuscule boost. In either case, the exact size of the boost is modified by his overall Teach Pitching rating, and improving upon existing pitches would be much more easily accomplished than learning a new pitch outright.

I was thinking about this, why not when Pitchers that retire and decide to coach, the 1-3 pitches they can teach/improve upon with more success be their top 3 pitches they used during their career? That would be something interesting, especially if retired players turn into coaches in the next version.

[Corsairs]

Originally Posted by SmoothGentleman

I was thinking about this, why not when Pitchers that retire and decide to coach, the 1-3 pitches they can teach/improve upon with more success be their top 3 pitches they used during their career? That would be something interesting, especially if retired players turn into coaches in the next version.

Yes, it would be reasonable for the system to provide a boost to the teach/train skill of a pitcher-turned-coach's best 1-2 pitches during his career. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that the pitcher-turned-coach will be a very good instructor, however (in other words, his overall "Teach Pitching" skill may or may not be so good). There are plenty of real world examples of excellent pitchers who for one reason or another aren't cut out to be good mentors for other pitchers.

[bp_]

this has been a useful thread to read through...our draft is about to start in an online league and I was considering a MR with two great pitches and hoping he'll develop a third.

Anyone know if the older college aged pitchers are less likely than the high school aged to develop a third pitch?

Also, does stamina increase if you use a MR pitcher as a starter?

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Combed this thread pretty meticulously...but is there anyway we can get developer confirmation on the details of a third pitch? Is the probability simply random, or are certain variables (intelligence and work ethic, to name a few) responsible? I think it'd be very nice to get some official word from Markus...I'd like to stop wasting my time constantly checking up on my studs, hoping they developed their wicked knuckle-cutter!