Injuries are just fine

[POKeefe]

Only thing I'd like to point out is there are far too many career ending torn labrum injuries for position players. How many position players in the past 5 years tore their labrum to the point they could no longer play anymore?

[rjv3]

I had Nate McClouth go down with a CEI (post-concussion I think) in the 7th game of the 2009 season. Thought I'd sell the farm for his replacement--Cameron Maybin--and everything would be gravy. I simmed the rest of the year to check the results only to find Maybin retired (CEI) with a fractured skull in September.

I think this gets a check in the "unrealistic" box. Unless of course you remember that time team X lost 2 starting CFs forever in a 5 month period.

Setting was on normal.

[jar2574]

Originally Posted by rjv3

I had Nate McClouth go down with a CEI (post-concussion I think) in the 7th game of the 2009 season. Thought I'd sell the farm for his replacement--Cameron Maybin--and everything would be gravy. I simmed the rest of the year to check the results only to find Maybin retired (CEI) with a fractured skull in September.

I think this gets a check in the "unrealistic" box. Unless of course you remember that time team X lost 2 starting CFs forever in a 5 month period.

Setting was on normal.

Sorry to hear that. But would it have been unrealistic if Maybin had been injured in Florida, if you hadn't done the trade?

Looks like a case of bad luck, unless overall CEI in the league are way too high.

Unique things happen everyday IRL. I had never so many hip injuries like A-Rod's and Alex Gordon's before this year. If the Yanks had traded for Gordon, they'd have had two 3B go down with the same weird injury within a couple months.

[Wrathchild]

For what it's worth, after playing out 4 games (not much, I know), I only saw 1 injury with it set to realistic.

[injury log]

OOTP has never distinguished between 'pitching' and 'throwing' injuries, and that's an area where the game could be improved. A torn labrum or UCL should sideline a pitcher quite a bit longer than a batter. Hopefully that can be adjusted for the first patch - I think I can suggest a way to do it easily.

Getting two CEIs in a year in the game should be rare; getting two at one position even moreso. Of course, with so many people playing the game now, rare things will happen to some of them. Hopefully that was an isolated occurrence, and I agree it's unrealistic; if you run into that again, it's certainly a problem.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by injury log

OOTP has never distinguished between 'pitching' and 'throwing' injuries, and that's an area where the game could be improved. A torn labrum or UCL should sideline a pitcher quite a bit longer than a batter. Hopefully that can be adjusted for the first patch - I think I can suggest a way to do it easily.

Getting two CEIs in a year in the game should be rare; getting two at one position even moreso. Of course, with so many people playing the game now, rare things will happen to some of them. Hopefully that was an isolated occurrence, and I agree it's unrealistic; if you run into that again, it's certainly a problem.

I think this is a pretty huge thing, getting the splits between pitchers and position players correct. It's nice that the overall frequency of injury matches real life on a macro scale. But that doesn't mean nearly as much if it breaks down on the micro scale.

Real life teams need to stockpile pitching like it's going extinct. OOTP teams have to spread out their depth because the injuries don't quite work right.

A related question: did the beta team look at injuries vs. age, and injuries vs. position (especially catchers)? Do pitchers under 25 get hurt more often? Do catchers get hurt more, fail to develop more often, and age faster than other players?

[injury log]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

I think this is a pretty huge thing, getting the splits between pitchers and position players correct. It's nice that the overall frequency of injury matches real life on a macro scale. But that doesn't mean nearly as much if it breaks down on the micro scale.

Real life teams need to stockpile pitching like it's going extinct. OOTP teams have to spread out their depth because the injuries don't quite work right.

A related question: did the beta team look at injuries vs. age, and injuries vs. position (especially catchers)? Do pitchers under 25 get hurt more often? Do catchers get hurt more, fail to develop more often, and age faster than other players?

I agree that getting batter/pitcher splits is very important, and it's something we were working on in beta. Because of time constraints, it didn't quite get there before release, but I'm hoping this will be adjusted again for the first patch.

We did look at injury vs. position, though I'm not persuaded that catchers get injured any more often than players at other positions - that wasn't true in 2007 MLB, at least. The OOTP fatigue model is different for catchers, which helps to ensure that starting catchers get less playing time than starters at other positions.

The relationship between injury and age is a tricky one, because it's hard to untangle survivorship bias from any data you might look at. In general, a player who does survive to play several years in OOTP will get more injury prone, since the injury proneness numbers increase over time, as a player suffers injuries. Of course there are players who suffer injuries and who do not return at a talent level that allows them to play in the Majors, and I have the impression that younger pitchers are more likely to suffer talent loss from injury in OOTP than older pitchers, though I have no data to support that - that's just the impression I have from playing.

I'm interested now in looking at the relationship between injury and playing time in MLB. Because most injuries occur in-game in OOTP, players who play more are more likely to get injured. I'd guess that's also true in real life, but not to the same extent, but it's something I'm planning to look into.

[Schmidt Happens]

I was just reading the top 10 worst #1 draft picks of MLB when I came across the best injury ever.

Matt AndersonAnderson could throw 100 mph and looked like he was going to be a dominating closer for the Tigers, who took him leading off the 1997 draft. He had 22 saves in 2001 and what should have been the start of a nice run ended in the oddest of ways. Anderson ended up tearing a muscle in his throwing arm when he participated in an octopus throwing contest at Comerica Park. He ended up with a final line of 15-7 with 26 saves in seven seasons.


It was interesting how many of these top 10 busts were due to injury. You can't make up the reasons why they dind't make it though. Crazy stuff.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by injury log

We did look at injury vs. position, though I'm not persuaded that catchers get injured any more often than players at other positions - that wasn't true in 2007 MLB, at least. The OOTP fatigue model is different for catchers, which helps to ensure that starting catchers get less playing time than starters at other positions.

According to that seven year study I linked to earlier in the thread, outfielders accounted for the most trips to the DL (discounting pitchers), while DH's, on average spent the most days on the DL.

[Malleus Dei]

Note to all of you with objections to the new system: you can both dial injuries down in setup *and* edit the injury.txt file to suit yourself.

[Jamee999]

Makes sense, DHs being, in general, older, and no longer able to handle playing the field because they're less physically well, where as the OF is a more physically active position.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by injury log

I agree that getting batter/pitcher splits is very important, and it's something we were working on in beta. Because of time constraints, it didn't quite get there before release, but I'm hoping this will be adjusted again for the first patch.

I hope you are able to get this done. I'd like to play with high\real life but won't make the switch to it until the distribution is tweaked.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

According to that seven year study I linked to earlier in the thread, outfielders accounted for the most trips to the DL (discounting pitchers), while DH's, on average spent the most days on the DL.

That's great data, OFG, and demonstrates that catchers do not accumulate significantly more DL time than players at other positions. I'd guess that the DH total is due to age; DH's are much more likely to be older players than those at other positions. If in OOTP DH's are older than other players, the game might get this right as well, since older players in OOTP are more injury prone than younger ones.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by injury log

That's great data, OFG, and demonstrates that catchers do not accumulate significantly more DL time than players at other positions. I'd guess that the DH total is due to age; DH's are much more likely to be older players than those at other positions. If in OOTP DH's are older than other players, the game might get this right as well, since older players in OOTP are more injury prone than younger ones.

It's interesting and the most comprehensive study I've found so far, although it does discount day to day injuries and deals strictly with trips to the DL.

Anyway, I'll post the link again for those that missed it in my earlier post in the thread.

Dissecting the Disabled List by Team, Position, Year andInjury - Beyond the Box Score

[injury log]

I looked back at the data I compiled from 2007 again (which does include dtd injuries), and should amend my earlier post - catchers did suffer slightly more injuries than players at other positions. Among position player injuries, 14% were to catchers, 47% to infielders, and 39% to outfielders. Considering the number of catchers, infielders and outfielders on a big league squad, that makes catchers just slightly more injury prone than outfielders, while infielders are the least injury prone of all position players. All of that said, the seven year study linked above has a larger sample size, so I'd put more stock in that.

[OldFatGuy]

Also, for those that feel "snake" bit with the new injury model, consider the real life Cincinnati Reds over the last seven years, who in total had more than FIVE TIMES as many days on the DL than the Houston Astros.

[jbergey22]

I think you guys have done a nice job in studying this data and applaud you for that.

The couple of things I would strongly agree with that have been mentioned.

1. Shorter injuries and less CEI to hitters, longer injuries and more CEI to pitchers
2. Younger players should heel faster and have less chances of CEI. I am guessing this could be a lot of the reason people are frustrated, losing 2 young cfs to CEI's in the same year would seem to be a 1 and million type thing.

3. It would be a great addition down the road if instead of being told right away its a career ending injury to have some sort of 6 month injury then be told there were more complications and this players needs another surgery so on a so forth. If it were done this way the move wouldnt seem as devastating as you had already played 6 months with out him and had sort of moved on without knowing it.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Also, for those that feel "snake" bit with the new injury model, consider the real life Cincinnati Reds over the last seven years, who in total had more than FIVE TIMES as many days on the DL than the Houston Astros.

So doing the math on this Im just going to use 200 days for the baseball season. 200*7=1400 total days(7 years) 10500/1400=Cincy has averaged 7.5 players on the DL every day for 7 years, Houston 1.43..League average seems like it would be around 4.0-4.5

[bwd]

Question: Do pitchers who suffer major (but not career ending) injury every lose velocity when they come back? Obviously it's very common to have those "they were never quite the same after..." type guys IRL.

[jbergey22]

Great data BTW OFG