Saves, blown saves, and position players (or PING: Cryomaniac)

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

It states you can't get a win and a save in the same game, but it doesn't say you can't get a blown save and a save in the same game. So, it appears he should get the blown save AND the save.

Yeah I know what it says in the rule book (I tried and failed to read a rule out of it in the original thread I linked to), but then the Wikipedia link contradicts that. A blown save and you're done. And you can't manufacture your own save. Which make sense to me even though the rule book doesn't make any mention, so I don't know where they've got that from.
Of course then what about if you go out with the lead but someone after you gives it up, and then the rest of my original scenario plays out?
I think it all hinges on the "entering the game" term in the rule, and what that actually constitutes. I'm beginning to wonder if these would be a scorer's discretion, like the old three inning effective pitching save.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

Yeah I know what it says in the rule book (I tried and failed to read a rule out of it in the original thread I linked to), but then the Wikipedia link contradicts that. A blown save and you're done. And you can't manufacture your own save. Which make sense to me even though the rule book doesn't make any mention, so I don't know where they've got that from.
Of course then what about if you go out with the lead but someone after you gives it up, and then the rest of my original scenario plays out?
I think it all hinges on the "entering the game" term in the rule, and what that actually constitutes. I'm beginning to wonder if these would be a scorer's discretion, like the old three inning effective pitching save.

I think that the wikipedia article assumes that the player doesn't stop pitching then come back later (which is a different save situation, since it's possible for there to be more than one blown save). I too am guessing it would be the scorers discretion if it ever happened.

Isn't anything not directly covered by the rules scorers / umpires discretion anyway?

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

Yeah I know what it says in the rule book (I tried and failed to read a rule out of it in the original thread I linked to), but then the Wikipedia link contradicts that. A blown save and you're done. And you can't manufacture your own save. Which make sense to me even though the rule book doesn't make any mention, so I don't know where they've got that from.
Of course then what about if you go out with the lead but someone after you gives it up, and then the rest of my original scenario plays out?
I think it all hinges on the "entering the game" term in the rule, and what that actually constitutes. I'm beginning to wonder if these would be a scorer's discretion, like the old three inning effective pitching save.

I agree that it hinges on "entering the game" but I really believe this is interpreted as "entering the game as a pitcher." In other words, he enters the game as a pitcher with a lead, and blows the save. A substitution is made, and another pitcher "enters the game as the pitcher", while the original moves to LF (or wherever). Later, another substitution occurs, and the original guy once again "enters the game as the pitcher." It is a brand new save situation, where he earns the save. Thus, a blown save and a save in the same game, so long as the second time he "entered the game as a pitcher" he fullfilled all of the rules above for a save.

I have not looked deeply into the Official Scorers rules so I can't say with certainty if this is correct, but I just really think so.

Later, I will try to do some more reading and find out.

[OldFatGuy]

Dola,

FWIW, I believe he "enters the game as a pitcher" again the second time because he is once again given warm-up pitches, and is once again, I believe, obligated to face at least one batter (or record an out).

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Isn't anything not directly covered by the rules scorers / umpires discretion anyway?

I expect so the first time and then they add it in quickly afterwards.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Dola,

FWIW, I believe he "enters the game as a pitcher" again the second time because he is once again given warm-up pitches, and is once again, I believe, obligated to face at least one batter (or record an out).

If the game has right, that's great. As I said earlier, whilst I'm guessing it has happened somewhere, there aren't many weird managers like me that would do it.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I expect so the first time and then they add it in quickly afterwards.



If the game has right, that's great. As I said earlier, whilst I'm guessing it has happened somewhere, there aren't many weird managers like me that would do it.

Well, it has happned, and it has happened on more than one occasion (using a pitcher more than once in a game that is, I don't know about the blown save/save, I rather doubt it).

But here is a reference to it in the rule book, under section 3.

Rule 3.03 Comment: A pitcher may change to another position only once during the same inning; e.g. the pitcher will not be allowed to assume a position other than a pitcher more than once in the same inning.

In the case I recall seeing Tony LaRussa do this (I think it was LaRussa, and I'm almost positive it was this year, but I can't find it yet), he had a right handed pitcher start the inning as a pitcher. A LHB came up, he brought in a LHP, and moved the RHP to left field. After the LHP retired his one guy, LaRussa came back out and moved the RHP back into the pitcher slot. So, according to the rule above, he would not have been able to do this a second time in the same inning.

Still looking.

[OldFatGuy]

Dola,

Well, it wasn't LaRussa, it was Bobby Cox. I knew I remembered seeing it this year, just my memory ain't great anymore and it was Cox. Unfortunately, this pitcher got the loss, so no way to garner knowledge of the save/blown save issue. However, notice in the box score how he is listed TWICE. I believe this is because he "enters the game as a pitcher" again the second time.

Still looking.

April 3, 2008 Pittsburgh Pirates at Atlanta Braves Play by Play and Box Score - Baseball-Reference.com

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I know, but if they had already pitched in the game (which is kind of the point of this post) then their arm would be at least a little loose.

If a pitcher pitches one inning, he's going to sit down when his team comes off the field. Then if he goes into the outfield, he'll play that inning. Then when he'll be sitting again for another half inning. By the time the coach asks him to go in and pitch again, his arm would be iced. His arm will be in worse condition for pitching than if he went in cold for the first time.

So no, I don't think that's even a wise decision at all.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Well, it has happned, and it has happened on more than one occasion (using a pitcher more than once in a game that is, I don't know about the blown save/save, I rather doubt it).

Okay, that's fair enough then.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

In the case I recall seeing Tony LaRussa do this (I think it was LaRussa, and I'm almost positive it was this year, but I can't find it yet), he had a right handed pitcher start the inning as a pitcher. A LHB came up, he brought in a LHP, and moved the RHP to left field. After the LHP retired his one guy, LaRussa came back out and moved the RHP back into the pitcher slot. So, according to the rule above, he would not have been able to do this a second time in the same inning.

Still looking.

I guess I should have tried that out to see if the game disallowed that. I don't remember doing that in my test.

[OldFatGuy]

Well, I just found evidence that refutes my theory of "entering the game as a pitcher." On July 15, 1993, Jeff Nelson entered the game in the 8th inning with a 3-2 lead. He recorded two outs, and was replaced. He moved to LF. The other pitcher retired the side.

In the top of the 9th, he re-entered (or not) the game as a pitcher, again with a 3-2 lead. He again recorded two outs, was replaced again (this time he exited the game), and the last recorded the last out for the save in the 3-2 victory.

Notice it was a "save" situation in both situations, in the 8th and 9th innings when he entered. Yet he was only credited with 1 hold, not two.

I think the whole problem here is that while a save is an official stat of MLB, a hold and blown save are not official stats of MLB, as they don't appear anywhere in the Official Rules of Scoring. (BTW, there are quite a few "unofficial" stats that are kept. Pitch count is another).

EDIT: I guess I've exhausted all the avenues I know of. Sorry couldn't help. FWIW, personally, I think the game got it right, and without an official answer one way or another, I would rather the game do it this way. There may be an "official" answer somewhere, I just don't know where.

Must say thanks for posting. This was fun to think about and research. It's fun to find and discuss stuff like this, thanks again.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

EDIT: I guess I've exhausted all the avenues I know of. Sorry couldn't help. FWIW, personally, I think the game got it right, and without an official answer one way or another, I would rather the game do it this way. There may be an "official" answer somewhere, I just don't know where.

Must say thanks for posting. This was fun to think about and research. It's fun to find and discuss stuff like this, thanks again.

Don't worry about it, I'm glad at least a few people were interested enough in my weird world to respond. I don't think the real David Wright or any other position player will be employed the way I have done. So thanks for your thoughts.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

FWIW, personally, I think the game got it right, and without an official answer one way or another, I would rather the game do it this way. There may be an "official" answer somewhere, I just don't know where.

Must say thanks for posting. This was fun to think about and research. It's fun to find and discuss stuff like this, thanks again.

I agree, I like how the game does it, and it should continue to do so until an MLB precedent says otherwise

I too love this stuff, it appeals to my sense of the bizarre.

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

Don't worry about it, I'm glad at least a few people were interested enough in my weird world to respond. I don't think the real David Wright or any other position player will be employed the way I have done. So thanks for your thoughts.

I have a weird mind too, it's cool =).

I would have liked the All star game to go on a few more innings, so JD Drew would have had to pitch.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I have a weird mind too, it's cool =).

I would have liked the All star game to go on a few more innings, so JD Drew would have had to pitch.

Well as I said before that's where I got the idea from. Of the four I'd heard mentioned, it had to be a team that had enough offense and enough starting pitching to let it not turn into a farcical meltdown, because I didn't know what would happen. So it came down to either Drew or Wright. And I didn't want to upset a certain moderator by picking his man.
You say you like little quirks, so you might like this little addendum too. During the mid part of the season I had burnt out most of the starting staff, and then Jorge Sosa got suspended. He'd have to go through waivers, so I turned, of course, to DW to start in a game in Philadelphia. Why not, he rocks (to an extent) in late inning outings.
Three innings later and after two hits, five walks, a wild pitch and a balk, just two runs had come across in a 2-2 game. Then Aaron Heilman gave up a run in the 6th in long relief and we couldn't score again, so we lost. It almost worked.

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

So it came down to either Drew or Wright. And I didn't want to upset a certain moderator by picking his man.

Strange as it may seem, I don't let events in fictional worlds taint my actual world. You could have picked Drew - I'd have had no problem with it - it's worrying that you think I would have...

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Tony M

Strange as it may seem, I don't let events in fictional worlds taint my actual world. You could have picked Drew - I'd have had no problem with it - it's worrying that you think I would have...

Fine, I picked Wright because for some weird reason I seem to like him. I thought the smilie would have been clear my attentions, but as it obviously did not, I'll add to my list not to do joking. Consider myself suitable admonished.