Bonds better than Ruth? Pt. 2

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Opinions are all fine and dandy if they are based on fact. When you say silly things like there are 3 players today who are better than Bonds. That is just plain dumb. You would have to ignore every statistical fact over the past 2 seasons to make a statement like that. There is only player who is even in the same stratosphere that he is.

No opinions are fine and dandy regardless, hey his last two seasons have been good......but two seasons do not "one of the greatest of all time" make....

[vtbub]

No opinions are fine and dandy regardless, hey his last two seasons have been good......but two seasons do not "one of the greatest of all time" make....

I'll have to use that trhe next time I get into a Kurt Warner debate.

[Steve Kuffrey]

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
No opinions are fine and dandy regardless, hey his last two seasons have been good......but two seasons do not "one of the greatest of all time" make....

'Good'? You said there are three players that are better right now. Not on this planet there aren't. Does having OBP's and SLG's better than Williams not impress you? Noone throws the guy a strike ever, when they do, he hits it out of one of the toughest parks in MLB.

Who are these three phantom ballplayers?

[vtbub]

A-Rod, his agent, and his salary

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
'Good'? You said there are three players that are better right now. Not on this planet there aren't. Does having OBP's and SLG's better than Williams not impress you? Noone throws the guy a strike ever, when they do, he hits it out of one of the toughest parks in MLB.

Who are these three phantom ballplayers?

Pointless to name anyone since "IT IS MY opinion" and you have your's so I'll leave it at that.

[Cooleyvol]

I think the original thought was that he was "top 3, all time".

Now they've changed it to top 3 today.

Top 3 today, yes...............alltime, no way.

To me he's a pumped up player who's putting up numbers the last few years WELL above what he ever did.

Sorry, folks.............that doesnt make him top 3 all time...............or top 30 all time, in my book.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Pointless to name anyone since "IT IS MY opinion" and you have your's so I'll leave it at that.

Well if you want to leave it at that fine. But, there is no argument in the world that there are three players currently in MLB that are better than Bonds.

[Steve Kuffrey]

No, the plain and simple fact is that I will never agree with you nor you me so no need to continue this "on my part", you can continue on if you wish.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Cooleyvol


To me he's a pumped up player who's putting up numbers the last few years WELL above what he ever did.

Led the league in OPS 7 times
5 MVPs (assuming 2002 - pretty safe)
The highest OBP ever accumulated in a single season .582 (2002)
The highest SLG ever accumlated in a single season .863 (2001)
8 Gold Gloves
11 times in the Top 10 in MVP voting
600 HR
500 Steals
4 batting titles including .370 in 2002
11 time all-star

Closest in similarity scores through age 36 (Before this season)
1. Mantle
2. Mays
3. Frank Robinson
9. Ruth


I don't try to compare guys to players I never saw - so I don't bother with trying to compare Bonds to Ruth or Dimaggio or Mantle or Williams - but anyone under the age of 35 who doesn't think Bonds is the best player of their time is not being objective. If you want to condemn him for steriod use that you can't prove, or hold his personality against him go ahead, but that's not being objective or fair.

I guess all the baseball managers that had him intentionally walked almost 70 times this year don't know much either. They should have saved those intentional walks for at least three other better players.

Maybe someday A-Rod will have had a better career, but there isn't one other active player who has a chance of saying that right now.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
No, the plain and simple fact is that I will never agree with you nor you me so no need to continue this "on my part", you can continue on if you wish.

You are the one who went out of his way to say there are three better current players than Bonds - I just asked you who they were. I don't care if you name them or not, but there isn't a shread of evidence that you are right.

[Crapshoot]

LynchJim24,
agree with you completely. I didnt Steve was one of those
people who let their hate of Bonds color their opinions but wow...
the guy had an OPS 290 points better than anyone, and he isnt one of the top 3 today ? He is definetely one of the top 3 of all time.
Im convinced that people who hate him would love him if he were
a hustling telegenic white guy (HTWG) as baseball prospectus puts it. And sad as it is, I have to believe that if Bonds were
a white guy, he'd be a "gamer" according to some of the ppl (notice I said some and not all)... aka Paul o Neill..And before anyone accuses me of being a liberal
race-baiter, I out to point that my political beliefs are probably
almost as libertarian as big phesta's I never thought Id be agreeing with Malleus on anything,
but all opinions arent equal. Those backed up by facts and data are naturally stronger than those with opinions based on dislikes and disdains. Steve or colleyvel have nothing
backing them up but their "opinions" while lynchjim, jason and the facts
have pointed out that Bonds is easily the best today,
and clearly one of the best ever. MIght be in the best hundred ?
Wow.... Did you happen to miss the 13 seasons and 3 MVP awards before that, the guy 10 SB away from being the fouding member of the 500-500 club (HR and SB).
Dont let your opinions of the man and whatever crap you hear
about him in the press color your opinion of the baseball player;
and dont respond telling me he isnt' a team player or a clutch hitter.
I genuinely dont mean to insult anyone, but such naked bias
always shocks me. People's willingness to ignore the facts at
hand always amaze me.

[slic1149]

Barry Bonds is the best player in baseball right now, if he plays at this same level for another year I believe he will be the best player ever.

[kingfc22]

It's amazing how some people just don't like Barry. It amazes me how, a guy can be so good and yet everybody hates him and accuses him of pumping up:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
To me he's a pumped up player who's putting up numbers the last few years WELL above what he ever did.

I'm gonna guess that if McGwire had these 2 past seasons that Bonds had, he'd EASILY be considered one of the best of all-time. Hell McGwire went from 52 homers, was injured for two years and all of a sudden he's at 70. It is absolutley ridiculous to not acknowledge what Barry has done over his career. 40-40 season. 3 MVP's and he's going to win this year too. 4th all-time in homers. A number of Gold Gloves. A whole hell of a lot of single season records. He's gonna create the 500-500 club. Come on people. Wake up! The media has never liked Barry because he doesn't want to talk to them. Since when is it not okay to want to keep to yourself and not tell the whole world everything about you. I bet if you were constantly hounded by people to answer questions on a daily basis for 6 months for 15 years straight, you'd get sick of it too. So don't knock the guy. Give him his props for being a truly dominant player. And don't give me that it's my opinion crap. The guy is good and is THE most dominant and imposing hitter in the game today.

Career:
Left fielder made Major League history by winning unprecedented 4th league Most Valuable Player Award (1990, '92, '93, 2001), garnering NL honors following historic 2001 campaign in which he broke 5 ML records...most impressive record he broke was single-season HR mark, hitting 73 clouts in 2001 to break Mark McGwire's mark of 70 in 1998...signed 5-year contract with Giants Jan. 14, 2002, thus insuring future Hall of Famer will close his career in Giants uniform...also signed 10-year personal services contract with club that kicks in at conclusion of current player contract...seized his place in ML record book in 1993 by becoming 1st player ever to win league Most Valuable Player Award (BBWAA) for 3rd time in 4 seasons when he garnered 24 1st-place votes and 372 points en route to NL trophy...joined Foxx ('32, '33 and '38), Joe DiMaggio ('39, '41 and '47), Musial ('43, '46 and '48), Roy Campanella ('51, '53 and '55), Yogi Berra ('51, '54 and '55), Mickey Mantle ('56, '57 and '62) and Schmidt ('80, '81 and '86) as 1 of only 8 players in baseball history to win MVP award 3 times...previously named MVP with Pittsburgh in 1990 and 1992, barely losing out to Terry Pendleton in '91 (274-259)...if 2 voters had reversed their votes for 1st and 2nd that year, Bonds would have won 4 awards in a row...became 5th National Leaguer and 10th player overall to win MVP awards in successive seasons in 1993 (last was Dale Murphy in 1982-83)...10-time All-Star and 8-time Rawlings Gold Glove winner was named Player of Decade for 1990s by The Sporting News...with 567 career clouts, is 2nd most prolific left-handed home run hitter in ML history, trailing only Babe Ruth (714)...owns sole possession of 7th on all-time list...next overall is Harmon Killebrew with 573...passed 10 Hall of Famers on all-time list during 2001, jumping from 17th to current 7th place...owns NL record for consecutive seasons with 30-or-more HR, accomplishing feat 10 times...Jimmie Foxx owns ML mark, reaching 30-HR plateau 12 straight years (1929-40)...has recorded 100 RBI 10 times in his career, while only Henry Aaron has more 100-RBI seasons in NL history (11)...Ruth, Foxx and Lou Gehrig hold ML standard with 13...is only member of 400-400 club (HRs-SBs), having also stolen 484 bags in career (41st on All-time ML list, 3 back of Omar Moreno for 40th)...only 3 other players have even reached 300-300 barrier: Willie Mays (660 HRs, 338 SBs), Andre Dawson (436 HRs, 314 SBs) and his father Bobby Bonds (332 HRs, 461 SBs)...has hit 40-or-more HRs in 5 different seasons, all with Giants (1993 - 46, 1996 - 42, 1997 - 40, 2000 - 49 and 2001 - 73)...2001 campaign marks just 19th time Giant has hit 40 or more clouts in year, with only Mays accomplishing feat more than 4 times (6 seasons)...became only 2nd member of 40-40 club in 1996 after clubbing 42 home runs and stealing 40 bases...is still only National Leaguer to accomplish feat...Oakland's Jose Canseco in 1988 and Seattle's Alex Rodriguez in 1998 are only other members of club...with 40 HR and 37 stolen bases in 1997, became 1st player in Major League history to compile at least 40 home runs and 30 stolen bases in 2 different seasons...has reached 30-30 plateau 5 times in career (1990, '92, '95, '96 and '97), joining his father Bobby (1969, '73, '75, '77 and '78) as only 5-time 30-30 men in ML history...only 6 other ML players have accomplished feat more than once: Mays, Howard Johnson, Sammy Sosa, Ron Gant, Jeff Bagwell and Raul Mondesi (all twice)...Barry and his father, Bobby (332 HRs), represent the ultimate show of power and speed in father-son pair, holding ML mark for HRs by father-son combo with 899...pair also holds same distinction for stolen bases with 945 thefts combined (Bobby 461, Barry 484)...with combined 2,566 RBI, Barry (1,542) and Bobby (1,024) are also tops for father-son runs driven in...holds Major League record with 355 intentional walks on career, surpassing home run king Hank Aaron (293) in 1999...has 56 multi-homer games, owning sole possession of 5th place on all-time ML list...next is Hank Aaron with 62, while all-time leader is Babe Ruth with 72...for his career, has played for playoff contending teams in 8 of his 16 seasons...during regular season in Sept. and Oct. of those 8 years, has hit combined .329 (241-for-732) with 71 HRs and 178 RBI...was 1 of only 2 players in majors to hit at least 20 homers in each year during 1990's, matching former Giant Matt Williams...collected 2,000th hit in 1999, becoming just 210th player in ML history and 47th to have worn Giants uniform to reach milestone...is only 25th player in ML history to amass 2,000 hits and 400 home runs in career...has homered in 26 big league parks, marking each ML park he has played in (during regular season)...in fan balloting during 1999 season, was named left fielder on San Francisco Giants All-Time team...was also named left fielder on 1990's All-Decade team in balloting among local media...was originally drafted by SF in 2nd round of 1982 draft, but elected to attend Arizona State.

Player of 1990s:
Was named Player of Decade for 1990s by The Sporting News...hit .302 (1,478-for-4,894) with 1,091 runs scored, 299 2Bs, 42 3Bs, 361 HRs, 1,076 RBI and 343 in 1,434 games during 1990s...past Player of Decade winners include: Stan Musial (1946-55), Ted Williams (1950-59), Willie Mays (1960-69), Pete Rose (1970-79) and Mike Schmidt (1980-89)...was only player in either league to receive MVP points in each year during 1990s...finished 3rd in decade for HRs, behind Mark McGwire (405) and Ken Griffey, Jr. (382)...also logged 3rd highest RBI total in 1990s, trailing only Albert Belle (1,099) and Griffey, Jr. (1,091)...won 8 Gold Gloves in left field...only Griffey, Jr. (10) and Greg Maddux (10) had more, at any position.

Above are the cold hard facts, that Barry Bonds IS one of the Best EVER. Love to hear how you argue against that.

[kingfc22]

And for those who still can't stand Barry and think he is a total jerk. Here is what he does for the community:

Donated $100,000 to United Way for families of victims from Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, giving $10,000 per HR following tragedy...in association with The United Way of the Bay Area, has formed Bonds Family Foundation with the goal to encourage, promote and fund programs designed to improve educational achievements, standard of living and quality of life conditions for African-American youth within Bay Area community, with an emphasis on programs that use interactive technology-based solutions...continued his quest to help children as Family Foundation began "Link 'n Learn" program to connect parents, children, schools and neighborhoods with tutoring services and interactive educational technology...Link 'n Learn program benefits over 1,500 children from grades 1-4 in selected low-income communities in San Francisco Bay Area by using interactive educational technology and high quality tutoring programs to enhance school-parent involvement and increase the learning experience of an at-risk child...along with Cal Ripken and Alex Rodriguez, is national spokesperson for Baseball Tomorrow Fund...appeared in public service announcements designed to promote and enhance growth of youth baseball...under auspices of Bonds Family Foundation, he spearheaded bone marrow campaign, 6-year drive to register African Americans and raise funds for families whose loved ones have Leukemia or related blood disorders...as board member of San Francisco United Way, has done public service announcement about campaign, featuring his special teenage friend, Anthony "Lee" Franklin, a near straight-A student and star shortstop/pitcher on Oakland's 1996 Babe Ruth League national championship team, who was diagnosed with leukemia...in 1999 established scholarship fund at alma mater Serra (San Mateo, CA) High School for an African American student based on academic and athletic achievement as well as community service...participated in 1998 Christmas in April which renovated home for autistic children, providing security system and digitial satellite system...beginning in 1997, Family Foundation started "Bridge to the Future" campaign which equipped 350 after-school centers and 7,000 family homes with Sony CD ROM Play Stations featuring Lightspan Learning Software...has appeared on billboard for California Police Activities League's "Stop Youth Violence" campaign...was honored at special tribute dinner in November 1996 by the Adopt-A-Special Kid organization after having donated $100,000 to AASK since 1993...San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown also proclaimed that day as "Barry Bonds Day" in San Francisco...during seasons at Candlestick, purchased 50 bleacher seats per game for 42 dates during summer vacation months of June, July and August establishing "The Bonds Squad," section for "Make-a-Family" program...in addition, has pledged $10,000 each year to AASK and $100 for each home run, stolen base and RBI each season...was honored in 1995 by Cardiac Arrhythmias Research and Education Foundation for his work with young athletes and his interest in combating sudden cardiac deaths...also in 1994, helped raise another $12,500 for AASK by co-hosting celebrity baseball game ("Field of Dreams") with singer Michael Bolton...in 1993, also co-hosted Thanksgiving special on Prime Network to help raise funds for fire victims of Southern California...autographed baseballs and bats which were donated to United Way to further help fire victims.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by kingfc22
past Player of Decade winners include: Stan Musial (1946-55), Ted Williams (1950-59), Willie Mays (1960-69), Pete Rose (1970-79) and Mike Schmidt (1980-89)

Mike Schmidt is my favorite player ever, but what a snub to Rickey that was. Same thing with Rose. He took the glory, but the Reds won on the backs of Morgan and Bench.

I still can't believe Barry averaged 35 win shares per season from 1990-1999. 30 is an MVP-type year, 35 is normally a lock on the award. He managed to average that for an entire decade.

Jason

[Chappy]

I is obvious that Bonds is better than Ruth. Bonds makes like 10 million a year, and Ruth only made around a hundred grand!

But seriously, I see no point in comparing players from the past and present because there are TOO many factors to consider. It annoys me to read things like 'Ruth didn't play in as competitive an era'. So what? He can't control that. That's like saying Bonds has an unfair advanage because he was a second generation player. Then there's the talent pool differences, the larger or smaller stadiums, the weight training, the diets, the Advil commercials, different dental care... It literally could go on forever.

The way I see it is this. Babe Ruth dominated HIS era. When he hit 60 HR's, the second most in the AL was 55. By PHILADELPHIA. Ruth outhomered every AL team and most NL teams that year. He hit for average. He hit for power. He drove in runs, and held many records. Likewise, Barry Bonds (so far) has dominated HIS era. Four MVPs. 10 times in the top 8 in MVP voting. You gotta admit the intentional walks record is impressive. People won't pitch to him. Add eight Gold Gloves to the mix, and (Steve, you're welcome to disagree ) you've got the best player of the 90's.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Ya know the point that I have been trying to get across is that it "really" doesn't matter what you or I or the man-in-the-moon thinks....

If I think that Bob Didier was the greatest player----SO WHAT.

I am done with this topic, you guys are welcome to continue.

[spleen1015]

Sam Horn! What's this Ruth and Bonds stuff? SAM HORN!

[JML]

One thing people often forget...

Ruth could pitch.

That's enough for me.