Braves clinch 11th staright division title - Page 2

Anonymous Ghost · 09-11-2002, 09:03 PM

No, actually they don't. There were no AL teams in either of those cities in 1959 (and the allignment I posted earlier would apply).

In 1954, there were five east coast cities (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore) and three midwest cities (Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit). The only question is which of the five east coast cities should be stuck out in the West, which should be decided between Baltimore and Washington, which are the furthest west of the five (New York is the second-furthest east).

In the other fourteen years, the specific allignment is irrelevant because the Yankees had the best record in the AL.

Eric · 09-11-2002, 09:41 PM

I agree that the Braves have been a premier ballclub for the past two decades. However, it is disappointing that they haven't won more World Series Championships. They are 1-4 in World Series in the 90's/00's

I remember the A's were very dominant in the late 80's but managed only to win 1 championship. (Darn you Kirk Gibson!)

Malleus Dei · 09-12-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by [WWBL]Batboy
One more thing to add. Since Bobby Cox was the manager of the Blue Jays, where he won the division before he took over the Brave's GM job only to become the manager again, this is his 12th division title in a row as a manager!

Now that's just insane!

Or perhaps just superior managing?

scprideandms · 09-12-2002, 10:51 AM

11 straight div titles and how many WS sins????

you can't be the best till you've beaten the best

Malleus Dei · 09-12-2002, 01:36 PM

You can get lucky/hot in a World Series and beat a better team for four games. It's been done, and a lot.

You can't get hot/lucky for 11 straight 162 game seasons, though. The Braves ARE the best, and have been - and to win those eleven straight titles, they beat EVERYBODY.

lynchjm24 · 09-12-2002, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
You can get lucky/hot in a World Series and beat a better team for four games. It's been done, and a lot.

You can't get hot/lucky for 11 straight 162 game seasons, though. The Braves ARE the best, and have been - and to win those eleven straight titles, they beat EVERYBODY.

I'll agree Bobby Cox can manage. However, there is the little problem of 1994 that you are overlooking here.

twins15 · 09-12-2002, 10:21 PM

Some would argue that the Blue Jays have been a more successful franchise over that time.

SoxWin · 09-12-2002, 11:16 PM

over what time?

Cheers

Rich

twins15 · 09-13-2002, 12:20 AM

over the last maybe 10 years. they have 2 world series rings, the braves 1.

Sinclair · 09-13-2002, 02:41 AM

There was an interesting article about the United States Electoral College on (I think it was) CNN.com, and why it is, in fact, still beneficial to US Democracy. In this article, the analogy was drawn between the Electoral College and the playoffs in baseball. It stated that most Americans understand implicitly how, despite winning their division 10 years in a row, the Braves are not the best team in baseball because of the number of World Series they've won (1? One. No pun intended).

Food for thought.

Malleus Dei · 09-13-2002, 10:27 AM

Fallacious arguments.

1994 was the strike-ended season that wasn't; it never finished, and it isn't counted in such streaks.

The playoff/division system was put in solely to increase revenue and keep attendance up for clubs who would otherwise be out of the league race early on in a non-divisional league. It has resulted in some horrible travesties (the Marlins winning the World Series comes to mind) in which teams that were clearly not even the best in their division wound up "champions of baseball." Any system where you can win the World Series without winning your own division is flawed beyond discussion.

But none of that has anything to do with the fact that the Braves have the eleven straight division championships and the record. If you can't understand what that means, then there's no point in me arguing with you about it.

Have a nice day.

lynchjm24 · 09-13-2002, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Fallacious arguments.

1994 was the strike-ended season that wasn't; it never finished, and it isn't counted in such streaks.

The playoff/division system was put in solely to increase revenue and keep attendance up for clubs who would otherwise be out of the league race early on in a non-divisional league. It has resulted in some horrible travesties (the Marlins winning the World Series comes to mind) in which teams that were clearly not even the best in their division wound up "champions of baseball." Any system where you can win the World Series without winning your own division is flawed beyond discussion.

But none of that has anything to do with the fact that the Braves have the eleven straight division championships and the record. If you can't understand what that means, then there's no point in me arguing with you about it.

Have a nice day.

Except for the fact that if the season ended there wouldn't be an 11 year streak. It would be an 8 year streak, still impressive - but I don't see how 1994 can be ignored so easily.

Sinclair · 09-13-2002, 01:35 PM

I understand exactly what it means. It means they were better than the mighty Philadelphia Phillies, the unstoppable Montreal Expos, the Big Blue And Orange Machine NY Mets, and the powerhouse Florida Marlins for the last decade (minus '94). Truly a class of teams that rivals the, erm, Brewers, Cubs, and Devil Rays in offensive prowess and pitching dominance throughout baseball history! Yarr!

World Series? Nah, who cares about the postseason? It's all about beating the Mets, Phillies, Expos, and Marlins year after year.

No disrespect to the Braves. They've been a great team over the years, for a number of reasons. But let's put this in perspective, here.

Peace.

CubsFan · 09-13-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sinclair
most Americans understand implicitly how, despite winning their division 10 years in a row, the Braves are not the best team in baseball because of the number of World Series they've won (1? ).

I don't buy this. I would say that over the last 11 years, the Braves have clearly been the best team in baseball. Not the best team every year, but the best when considering the whole time period together. It's nice when the best team wins the World Series. It happens often. It inarguably makes that team the champion of baseball. But the long-haul success is in many ways better.

Side note--Differences in opinion over this very issue is part of what makes "competitive balance" an elusive concept in MLB. I believe the best evidence of balance is how many different teams make the playoffs. Owners are arguing that the inability of the A's, for example, to get out of the 1st round proves that small-market teams can't really compete. I think that's hogwash. Making the playoffs is the biggest test. A lot of luck involved after that.

Malleus Dei · 09-13-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lynchjm24
Except for the fact that if the season ended there wouldn't be an 11 year streak. It would be an 8 year streak, still impressive - but I don't see how 1994 can be ignored so easily.

No one counts it because it didn't finish. It was a season that didn't end because of the strike.

Here are some people that you can argue this with:

CBS Sports - "an unprecedented 11th straight division title."

ESPN - "Braves winning their 11th straight NL East title"

CNN/SI - "The Braves clinched their 11th straight division title on Monday"

Associated Press - "Braves clinch 11th straight division title"

USA Today - "After clinching their 11th consecutive division championship in a full season"

Newsday - "Braves Clinch 11th Straight Title"

Sporting News - "Atlanta...properly celebrating its 11th straight division championship."

Malleus Dei · 09-13-2002, 05:14 PM

Cubsfan: Well put.

lynchjm24 · 09-13-2002, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

No one counts it because it didn't finish. It was a season that didn't end because of the strike.

Here are some people that you can argue this with:

CBS Sports - "an unprecedented 11th straight division title."

ESPN - "Braves winning their 11th straight NL East title"

CNN/SI - "The Braves clinched their 11th straight division title on Monday"

Associated Press - "Braves clinch 11th straight division title"

USA Today - "After clinching their 11th consecutive division championship in a full season"

Newsday - "Braves Clinch 11th Straight Title"

Sporting News - "Atlanta...properly celebrating its 11th straight division championship."

I understand people are calling it that. However, many of these same people will tell you Montreal had the best team in baseball in 1994 - so it seems a little silly to pretend like 1994 never happened, just because there was no post season.

Malleus Dei · 09-13-2002, 05:35 PM

Let me repeat this one more time: no one - NO ONE - counts 1994 in streaks (see above) because the 1994 season never ended because of the strike. No one knows how the 1994 season really would have ended either, for the same reason - because it never did.

The season never ended. That's right, the end of the season never happened. No pretense here is being employed by CBS, ESPN, CNN/SI, AP, USA Today, Newsday, and TSN because they know that it didn't happen, and so does the MLB.

lynchjm24 · 09-13-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Let me repeat this one more time: no one - NO ONE - counts 1994 in streaks (see above) because the 1994 season never ended because of the strike. No one knows how the 1994 season really would have ended either, for the same reason - because it never did.

The season never ended. That's right, the end of the season never happened. No pretense here is being employed by CBS, ESPN, CNN/SI, AP, USA Today, Newsday, and TSN because they know that it didn't happen, and so does the MLB.

I know the season didn't end, and I know that noone can predict what happened.

They weren't going to win their division in 1994. If you want to make a big deal out of 11 division titles.. .be my guest.

Some of the luster is gone in my opinion because they weren't winning that division in 1994.

twins15 · 09-14-2002, 12:27 PM

American League National League

Eastern Divisions
Team Won Lost GB PCT Team Won Lost Montreal 74 40
Atlanta 68 46
NYMets 55 58
Philadelphia 54 61
Florida 51 64 23.5 .443

These are the 1994 standings. Expos had a 6 game lead.

09-12-2002, 10:51 AM	#24
scprideandms All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: N KY, 25 miles from Cincy Posts: 1,314	11 straight div titles and how many WS sins???? you can't be the best till you've beaten the best __________________ Change your playground + change your playfriends + change your playtoys + change your playtime = Change your life. If you keep on doing what you've always done you'll keep on gitting what you've always gotten.

09-12-2002, 10:21 PM	#27
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Some would argue that the Blue Jays have been a more successful franchise over that time. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-12-2002, 11:16 PM	#28
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	over what time? Cheers Rich __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

09-13-2002, 12:20 AM	#29
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	over the last maybe 10 years. they have 2 world series rings, the braves 1. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-14-2002, 12:27 PM	#40
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	American League National League Eastern Divisions Team Won Lost GB PCT Team Won Lost Montreal 74 40 Atlanta 68 46 NYMets 55 58 Philadelphia 54 61 Florida 51 64 23.5 .443 These are the 1994 standings. Expos had a 6 game lead. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-11-2002, 09:03 PM	#21
Anonymous Ghost All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 751	No, actually they don't. There were no AL teams in either of those cities in 1959 (and the allignment I posted earlier would apply). In 1954, there were five east coast cities (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore) and three midwest cities (Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit). The only question is which of the five east coast cities should be stuck out in the West, which should be decided between Baltimore and Washington, which are the furthest west of the five (New York is the second-furthest east). In the other fourteen years, the specific allignment is irrelevant because the Yankees had the best record in the AL.

09-11-2002, 09:41 PM	#22
Eric All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 1,234	I agree that the Braves have been a premier ballclub for the past two decades. However, it is disappointing that they haven't won more World Series Championships. They are 1-4 in World Series in the 90's/00's I remember the A's were very dominant in the late 80's but managed only to win 1 championship. (Darn you Kirk Gibson!)

09-13-2002, 02:41 AM	#30
Sinclair Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 202	There was an interesting article about the United States Electoral College on (I think it was) CNN.com, and why it is, in fact, still beneficial to US Democracy. In this article, the analogy was drawn between the Electoral College and the playoffs in baseball. It stated that most Americans understand implicitly how, despite winning their division 10 years in a row, the Braves are not the best team in baseball because of the number of World Series they've won (1? One. No pun intended). Food for thought.

09-13-2002, 01:35 PM	#33
Sinclair Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 202	I understand exactly what it means. It means they were better than the mighty Philadelphia Phillies, the unstoppable Montreal Expos, the Big Blue And Orange Machine NY Mets, and the powerhouse Florida Marlins for the last decade (minus '94). Truly a class of teams that rivals the, erm, Brewers, Cubs, and Devil Rays in offensive prowess and pitching dominance throughout baseball history! Yarr! World Series? Nah, who cares about the postseason? It's all about beating the Mets, Phillies, Expos, and Marlins year after year. No disrespect to the Braves. They've been a great team over the years, for a number of reasons. But let's put this in perspective, here. Peace.