Clutch Rating? - Page 2

Erik W. · 04-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

In my view, clutch does not exist and is somewhat silly as it is essentially saying this player "tries harder" in this situation. Players who are considered clutch are generally considered good to great ball players.

But what about players whose performance suffers in "clutch" situations? I've always looked at "clutch" players as those who perform to their peak level (note: not more than their normal peak) in tough situations. Then there are those who perform below their normal level in those situations. (See: Rodriguez, Alex.)

darkenigma510 · 04-10-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

Clutch?

How about a true Yankee rating? or a grittiness rating? How about a rating for pitchers with a slide piece.

What difference does it make in a game ? DMB also has a toggle-able clutch rating for what its worth.

darkenigma510 · 04-10-2007, 11:03 AM

If you can have a game that can create hobbit leagues, then you can also have a game that creates a universe where clutch exists and plays a role.

bigdgp2 · 04-10-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

If you can have a game that can create hobbit leagues, then you can also have a game that creates a universe where clutch exists and plays a role.

But hobbits aren't clutch.

Erik W. · 04-10-2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdgp2

But hobbits aren't clutch.

I'd like to see ARod make it to Mount Doom to save the world!

toxicavenger74 · 04-10-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

But what about players whose performance suffers in "clutch" situations? I've always looked at "clutch" players as those who perform to their peak level (note: not more than their normal peak) in tough situations. Then there are those who perform below their normal level in those situations. (See: Rodriguez, Alex.)

So, you are saying that A-Rod is not clutch? Let me see the analysis/stats that proves this.

Keep in mind he has done something the last 6 games that no other yankee has ever done including a walk-off grandslam.

Also, note that Eckstein won the MVP during the last world series.

andymac · 04-10-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

Also, note that Eckstein won the MVP during the last world series.

Rolen wuz robbed.

toxicavenger74 · 04-10-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

If you can have a game that can create hobbit leagues, then you can also have a game that creates a universe where clutch exists and plays a role.

Yeah, hopefully 2008 will have a toggle to have players who "brings lunch pails to work".

Neither exist.

Erik W. · 04-10-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

So, you are saying that A-Rod is not clutch? Let me see the analysis/stats that proves this.

Quote:

2005 ALDS NYY LAA L 5 15 2 2 1 0 0 0 6 5 .133 .381 .200 1 1
2006 ALDS NYY DET L 4 14 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 4 .071 .071 .071 0 0

Quote:

Also, note that Eckstein won the MVP during the last world series.

I'm well aware, thanks.

I'm curious to see why you think that's an argument against some players performing better than others in "clutch" situations. It seems to me that shows an example of someone playing to his absolute peak performance in a clutch situation, for the second time in his career.

darkenigma510 · 04-10-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

Yeah, hopefully 2008 will have a toggle to have players who "brings lunch pails to work".

Neither exist.

You keep harping on whether it exists or has an effect in real life. Even if you don't believe it exists, it doesn't matter because its just a game. You can always choose to turn it off similar to ratings such as loyalty and greed which are intangible qualities equally undterminable in real personnel.

This is a game which has a fictional, fantasy element to it. So, I'm not sure why your arguments about "it doesn't exist" are relevant.

andymac · 04-10-2007, 11:17 AM

Sample Size!!! (haven't got to use that one in a while).

I can't remember, was it the steroids that made Barry Bonds reverse his clutchness over his career?? Maybe A-Rod needs to look into that.

toxicavenger74 · 04-10-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

I'd like to see ARod make it to Mount Doom to save the world!

A-Rod is one of the greatest players to play the game. He is one of the top 3 shortstops to play the game if not the best. He is a better shortstop than Jeter both in fielding and in hitting (although Jeter should have won AL MVP last year). All of this is proven by statistics. I am a Cardinals fan and I would love to see Eckstein and Kennedy and any of our outfielders (or all of them) traded to the Yankees for A-Rod.

Erik W. · 04-10-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

A-Rod is one of the greatest players to play the game. He is one of the top 3 shortstops to play the game if not the best. He is a better shortstop than Jeter both in fielding and in hitting (although Jeter should have won AL MVP last year). All of this is proven by statistics. I am a Cardinals fan and I would love to see Eckstein and Kennedy and any of our outfielders (or all of them) traded to the Yankees for A-Rod.

Someone needs to turn his joke sensor on. Or did you think I was serious about comparing a baseball player to a couple of fictional 3'6" characters?

Erik W. · 04-10-2007, 11:23 AM

dola,

As a Cardinals fan, I wouldn't want that unless the Yankees paid most of his contract, or else it would be ARod, Pujols, and seven minimum salary position players taking the field.

toxicavenger74 · 04-10-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

You keep harping on whether it exists or has an effect in real life. Even if you don't believe it exists, it doesn't matter because its just a game. You can always choose to turn it off similar to ratings such as loyalty and greed which are intangible qualities equally undterminable in real personnel.

This is a game which has a fictional, fantasy element to it. So, I'm not sure why your arguments about "it doesn't exist" are relevant.

This is true we are mixing game and real-life attributes. I would think that the AI and randomness of the fictional game would capture this "fictional" clutchness of real-life.

I think the best way to capture it is to have work-ethic which affects their ability to improve performance over time and therefore improve their chances of getting a hit in the off-chance that this hit occurs in the late innings of a game.

Kaitiaki · 04-10-2007, 11:25 AM

Erik W: your examples rely on the fallacy of a small sample size, and are not consistent with A Rod's career performance in clutch situations as a whole.

Baseball Reference data:

Career line: .306/.386/.574
2 out, RISP: .271/.395/.467
Close/late: .276/.364/.520
Tie game: .302/.399/.580
Within 1 run: .305/.397/.584
Within 2 runs: .299/.386/.561

While his 2 out/RISP and close/late numbers are below his career line, those are situations which are themselves plagued by sample size issues (897 and 1512 AB, respectively, versus 2205 ABs in tie games and 5115 within two runs) and are inconsistent with his much better numbers in the wider circumstance of tie games in general - where his OBP and SLG actually exceed his career line.

The evidence that Alex Rodriguez has some fundamental, chronic, and reliable inability to perform in clutch situations does not exist.

- Kai

TNCubsFan · 04-10-2007, 11:47 AM

Clutch is easier to not prove than prove. In 98 when Sosa was launching baseballs his career bases loaded batting average was .118 or so. He had loads of K's to go with that. Watching games through his career with the Cubs as soon as he came up with the bases loaded I knew strike three was going to be a breaking pitch off the plate in the dirt. I also knew that he would be lunging through the AB trying to rip the cover off the ball. He was trying harder to be successful, to the point that he was hindering his opportunity of success.

Finally one night in San Diego he and the pitcher screwed up and Sosa hit it a long way into the outfield seats. Within a week he had hit another grandslam. His batting average with the bases loaded post his first grandslam, while he was with the Cubs, was .300+

Had he suddenly become clutch? No. I believe that he learned he could hit in bases loaded situations overcoming his earlier self imposed pressure. All he did was approach the situation with a positive mindset and allowed his talent to function at the level he was capable of.

To me trying to prove clutch is a waste of time. You are looking for a positive outcome in a game where failing seventy percent of the time for twenty years probably gets you into the Hall of Fame.

To prove or disprove clutch I have to words, sample size. If I have a guy who hits .000 in ten at bats with the bases loaded, is he unclutch? What if I tell you that eight of those at bats ended by the batter hitting line drives right at defenders. The other two outs were hard one hops to the shortstop. Is that player unclutch now or just a fugitive from the law of averages?

Claybor · 04-10-2007, 12:00 PM

No clutch rating? Thats another step backwards. Whether or not you like clutch or think there should be one, it was a part of the ootp game and should not have been removed. The point of new versions were to improve the game, how can removing things that many folks obviously liked improve the game? I have also been unable to find an injury rating, and gather it has been removed too?

darkenigma510 · 04-10-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claybor

No clutch rating? Thats another step backwards. Whether or not you like clutch or think there should be one, it was a part of the ootp game and should not have been removed. The point of new versions were to improve the game, how can removing things that many folks obviously liked improve the game? I have also been unable to find an injury rating, and gather it has been removed too?

The injury rating is hidden.

SunDevil · 04-10-2007, 12:18 PM

The more things change, the more things stay the same. The annual clutch rating discussion.

04-10-2007, 11:17 AM	#31
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	Sample Size!!! (haven't got to use that one in a while). I can't remember, was it the steroids that made Barry Bonds reverse his clutchness over his career?? Maybe A-Rod needs to look into that. __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

04-10-2007, 11:23 AM	#34
Erik W. Global Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rivière-du-Loup, Qc Posts: 4,615	dola, As a Cardinals fan, I wouldn't want that unless the Yankees paid most of his contract, or else it would be ARod, Pujols, and seven minimum salary position players taking the field. __________________ Free agent baseball fan. Let's go (insert team name here)!

04-10-2007, 11:25 AM	#36
Kaitiaki Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,065	Erik W: your examples rely on the fallacy of a small sample size, and are not consistent with A Rod's career performance in clutch situations as a whole. Baseball Reference data: Career line: .306/.386/.574 2 out, RISP: .271/.395/.467 Close/late: .276/.364/.520 Tie game: .302/.399/.580 Within 1 run: .305/.397/.584 Within 2 runs: .299/.386/.561 While his 2 out/RISP and close/late numbers are below his career line, those are situations which are themselves plagued by sample size issues (897 and 1512 AB, respectively, versus 2205 ABs in tie games and 5115 within two runs) and are inconsistent with his much better numbers in the wider circumstance of tie games in general - where his OBP and SLG actually exceed his career line. The evidence that Alex Rodriguez has some fundamental, chronic, and reliable inability to perform in clutch situations does not exist. - Kai __________________ BJHL: Commissioner; Owner: Wichita War Eagles

04-10-2007, 11:47 AM	#37
TNCubsFan Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 300	Clutch is easier to not prove than prove. In 98 when Sosa was launching baseballs his career bases loaded batting average was .118 or so. He had loads of K's to go with that. Watching games through his career with the Cubs as soon as he came up with the bases loaded I knew strike three was going to be a breaking pitch off the plate in the dirt. I also knew that he would be lunging through the AB trying to rip the cover off the ball. He was trying harder to be successful, to the point that he was hindering his opportunity of success. Finally one night in San Diego he and the pitcher screwed up and Sosa hit it a long way into the outfield seats. Within a week he had hit another grandslam. His batting average with the bases loaded post his first grandslam, while he was with the Cubs, was .300+ Had he suddenly become clutch? No. I believe that he learned he could hit in bases loaded situations overcoming his earlier self imposed pressure. All he did was approach the situation with a positive mindset and allowed his talent to function at the level he was capable of. To me trying to prove clutch is a waste of time. You are looking for a positive outcome in a game where failing seventy percent of the time for twenty years probably gets you into the Hall of Fame. To prove or disprove clutch I have to words, sample size. If I have a guy who hits .000 in ten at bats with the bases loaded, is he unclutch? What if I tell you that eight of those at bats ended by the batter hitting line drives right at defenders. The other two outs were hard one hops to the shortstop. Is that player unclutch now or just a fugitive from the law of averages? __________________ "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out" George Brett HOF

04-10-2007, 11:03 AM	#23
darkenigma510 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Wild West Posts: 1,353	If you can have a game that can create hobbit leagues, then you can also have a game that creates a universe where clutch exists and plays a role.

04-10-2007, 12:00 PM	#38
Claybor All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,361 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	No clutch rating? Thats another step backwards. Whether or not you like clutch or think there should be one, it was a part of the ootp game and should not have been removed. The point of new versions were to improve the game, how can removing things that many folks obviously liked improve the game? I have also been unable to find an injury rating, and gather it has been removed too?

04-10-2007, 12:18 PM	#40
SunDevil Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 373	The more things change, the more things stay the same. The annual clutch rating discussion.